Admiral SHERMAN. It is my understanding, sir, that the appearances of witnesses before Congress in connection with naval appropriations is entirely at the will of Congress. It is customary, however, that the Secretaries and the responsible officers in the bureaus, the officers responsible for handling the various titles, subheads, and break-downs of funds appear before Congress.

Senator BYRD. That would be true, of course, if the Secretary of the Navy were supporting the budget submitted by the Secretary of National Defense.

But suppose he was in opposition to it.

Did not the President issue an order recently that no heads of bureaus or departments could appear before Congress in opposition to the budget estimates?

Admiral SHERMAN. Yes, sir; such an order is in effect.

Senator BYRD. How, then, could one of these Secretaries go before Congress in opposition to what the Secretary of National Defense had done?

Admiral SHERMAN. Only through his exercise of his right of appeal to the President.

Senator BYRD. But I am speaking of Congress. I am not speaking of the President. He is prohibited by the order of the President from coming before Congress.

Admiral SHERMAN. As I understand it, this bill would leave the Secretary of the Navy, for instance, in the same position vis-à-vis the Secretary of National Defense that he is now in

Senator BYRD. Where is that? That is what I have been trying to find ever since these hearings started. Where is that independent power of the Secretary of the Army or the Secretary of the Navy or the Secretary of Air? Just point that out in the bill.

Admiral SHERMAN. There is no power in the bill for the Secretary of a department to appeal to Congress. The only proviso in here is for his appeal to the President.

Senator BYRD. I understand that, but you speak of some independent powers that these Secretaries have, and other witnesses have spoken of them. I have not been able to find that, and if it is in the bill I would like you to find it. It is not what we think the bill ought to be; it is what the bill is.

Admiral SHERMAN. The only way that is provided in this bill, the only way it is provided for the Secretary of a department to present any report or recommendation relating to his department which is not in accordance with the decisions of the Secretary of National Defense, is in the proviso that he may make such presentation to the President.

Senator BYRD. And when he does that, I assume the Secretary of National Defense would be heard at the same time that his subordinate was heard.

Admiral SHERMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator BYRD. How long would that subordinate last? Suppose you were Secretary of the Navy and would go to the President; and in the presence of your superior, let us suppose you would take issue with him. Would you remain there long as Secretary of the Navy, in your judgment?

Admiral SHERMAN. In my judgment, if that happened very frequently, there would have to be a change.

Senator ROBERTSON. Well, if it happened once, Admiral, would that not result? Considering the discipline of the Navy and the Army, and, presumably, the Air Force, if it happened once, one or the other is going to get out; is that not true? Otherwise, the situation becomes intolerable.

Senator BYRD. It destroys the whole discipline of the military serv ices and all it does is give to the President an opportunity to decide between the two. He can decide whether he will keep the Secretary of the Navy or the Secretary of National Defense, and 9 times out of 10 he will decide in favor of the high officer, who is the Secretary of National Defense.

Senator ROBERTSON. It seems to me almost as bad as if you, as the Chief of Staff in the Pacific, were to bypass Admiral Nimitz and go straight to the Joint Chiefs of Staff. There would be something doing very quickly, would there not?

Admiral SHERMAN. Oh, yes, sir; because no staff officer in the Navy has any authority independently of his commander.

Senator BYRD. I want to congratulate Admiral Sherman for making the first frank statement that I have heard since I have been at these hearings as to the real power of the Secretary of National Defense as contrasted with the powers of the three subordinate officers. He has stated the situation absolutely correctly, and others have tried to contend that the Secretary of National Defense only has some general supervision. And, of course, general supervision has got to get down to details. You cannot be the head of a department and only have what you call general authority. You have to have absolute authority to do this and to do that, in detail.

I want to say that I congratulate the admiral, because no other witness has ever before admitted that.

Admiral SHERMAN. It is my concept, sir, that in order to exercise general supervision effectively you must have residual power.

Senator BYRD. Of course, you must have, but that has been denied here. That was denied by the Secretary of War and by the Secretary of the Navy, and by all the others. I could tell you from the beginning that that was what this bill meant.

Senator RUSSELL. Admiral, how is it handled at present? Does not the Secretary of the Navy now make up a budget?

Admiral SHERMAN. The Secretary of the Navy now makes up a budget estimate, and the Secretary of War makes up a budget estimate. They go in to the Bureau of the Budget, and the Bureau of the Budget then makes a report to the President as to what should happen to those estimates.

Right now, the Bureau of the Budget can cut one down and not the other, and change the proportion. This would transfer that power of the Bureau of the Budget to the Secretary of National Defense.

Senator RUSSELL. Where they are not considered together at all, they are considered as independent budgets.

Admiral SHERMAN. The advantage of this system, sir, as I see it, is that they would be handled concurrently. They would be derived from a common political and strategic concept. And then they would flow on together as a coordinated matter.

Senator BYRD. Admiral, that could be done now, could it not? The President could direct the Bureau of the Budget to consider it coordinately now.

Admiral SHERMAN. He could, sir.

Senator BYRD. It would not require a bill to do that.

Admiral SHERMAN. He could, sir; but the advantage would be to have an official

Senator BYRD. And is this not true: You are simply establishing another agency there to make changes, because after the Secretary of National Defense changes the recommendations of these three subordinate officials, then the Budget Bureau can make further changes. That is correct, is it not?

Admiral SHERMAN. That is correct, sir.

Senator BYRD. So you have to establish another agency that can make changes.

Senator RUSSELL. I would like to ask one or two questions, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead, Senator Russell.

Senator RUSSELL. At the present time, each of these departments, the two that are in existence, submit their budgets independently? Admiral SHERMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator RUSSELL. There is no real coordination in the Bureau of the Budget, or there has not been up to now. That is possibly, as Senator Byrd suggests, because the President could indicate to the Budget that the same officials in that agency should handle the two of them. But at the present time they are submitted and handled independently, and at different times.

Admiral SHERMAN. I cannot testify with authority as to the amount of independence in the Bureau of the Budget, but I do know as to the timing that they are not handled at the same time.

Senator RUSSELL. You have been to the budget, have you not? Do you not know, as a matter of fact, that they have different people there to handle the Navy appropriation, and the Army appropriat on? Admiral SHERMAN. Yes, sir; and they are handled at different times.

Senator RUSSELL. They are handled at different times. Then they go from the budget to the President, and he has authority to make any change he sees fit before submitting them to the Congress.

What do you think would happen, Admiral Sherman, if a Secretary of the Navy, with the order that is now in existence, were to come to the Congress and take violent issue with the budget that is submitted by the President? Do you think he would be around here very long, if, in view of the President's order that he has outstanding now, he were to come up to the Congress and say that he disapproved violently of the budget submitted by the President and wanted to make other suggestions as to how the appropriation should be made?

Admiral SHERMAN. I have never thought very seriously about the problems of Cabinet officers, but my own reaction is that the shoe would be on the other foot; that if the head of a Government department cannot support the Chief Executive, he should tender his resignation. Senator RUSSELL. Yes; I have just been unable to see the great danger that attends having this Secretary of National Defense undertake to coordinate these budgets. It seems to me that if we are ever to get any economy in the operation of the Army and Navy and the national defense agencies, we must have some place where they will all be coordinated, and they will not be submitted independently of each other.