subsequently advised him that he had checked with Attorney General Brownell and Thomas Stevens, an assistant to the President, and that they concluded that it would be perfectly proper for Mr. Strobel to continue to operate his engineering business during his tenure as Public Buildings Service Commissioner. Mr. Strobel said that he could not possibly have taken the Government job otherwise. He said he had built the firm out of nothing, and that it was his principal means of livelihood. Unless he continued to operate the firm the business would die, according to Mr. Strobel.

Now, I ask you, sir, whether on the basis of your present recollection that is an accurate statement, account of what you told me? Mr. STROBEL. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. KEATING. But you now say, Mr. Strobel, that Mr. Smith did not tell you he had checked it with Mr. Brownell?

Mr. STROBEL. No. I discussed the situation with him. And I was led to believe that my personal interest in the firm would be satisfactory. And that was the basis on which I came to Washington, and on the basis of which I relinquished active management of the firm. I did not sell the firm, I couldn't do it, it is like disposing of some stocks because it is a different type of value.

Mr. MALETZ. Now, Mr. Strobel, I take it, then, that you were recommended for this job by Mr. Smith.

Mr. STROBEL. No-well, I say no, I don't know, the way that came about, I was requested by the national State committee to submit my brochure and personal information. And that was made up and

submitted.

Mr. MALETZ. Would you speak a little louder? I didn't get all that answer.

Mr. STROBEL. To submit my brochure of my business record and the firm's records. And that was submitted.

Mr. MALETZ. To whom?

Mr. STROBEL. To the State national committee in New York.

Mr. MALETZ. Now, Mr. Strobel, I would like to ask you about your relationship with the firm of Strobel & Salzman since assuming Government employment. I understand that you spend every week end in New York City; is that correct?

Mr. STROBEL. No; that is not correct. But I spend every weekend away from Washington. I would say I spend every 4 out of 5 weekends with my family.

Mr. MALETZ. Occasionally during weekends will you visit the firm offices?

Mr. STROBEL. Yes; I do.

Mr. MALETZ. Now, does Mrs. Strobel, who serves as bookkeeper and paymaster, keep you currently advised of the pertinent developments of Strobel & Salzman?

Mr. STROBEL. To the extent she can. Of course, she is not a technical person.

Mr. MALETZ. Now, Mr. Sol Schwarz is the business manager of Strobel & Salzman; is he not?

Mr. STROBEL. That is correct.

Mr. MALETZ. It is a fact, is it not, that Mr. Schwarz sends you a weekly report summarizing the firm's activities?

Mr. STROBEL. As a rule, he does.

Mr. MALETZ. And this weekly report also has attached a breakdown of the projects in which work is being done by Strobel & Salzman,

together with the number of hours each of the firm's employees works in each week?

Mr. STROBEL. That is the report, that breakdown is the report.

Mr. MALETZ. Now, does Mr. Schwarz report to you more frequently as important developments come up?

Mr. STROBEL. Well, I think that there can be rather extended periods where I don't hear from him or from the office-in fact, I think there was 1 period for as long as 4 months where I did not go to the office of Strobel & Salzman.

Mr. MALETZ. Do you recall telling Mr. Moody, counsel for the Public Buildings Service, that while Mr. Salzman is responsible to you for the active day-to-day administration of the company business, including the performance of Government prime and subcontracts, the primary company responsibility is still yours?

Mr. STROBEL. Well, by that I mean if the business should have any losses it will be my responsibility. I can't spend full time in Washington and still run the day-to-day affairs of Strobel & Salzman, that is simply impossible.

Mr. MALETZ. Do you also recall telling Mr. Moody that you confer and consult with Mr. Salzman outside of your official Government hours of duty as may be necessary to assure the proper performance of company business, and that you intended to continue doing so during your tenure as Commissioner?

Mr. STROBEL. I confer with Salzman occasionally.

Mr. MALETZ. Is it true that no new work will be undertaken by Strobel & Salzman unless your personal concurrence is first obtained? Mr. STROBEL. No; that is not wholly true, because the office has had contracts, entered into contracts, that I don't know anything about until after it is an accomplished fact.

Mr. MALETZ. Now, from time to time do you personally seek to obtain business for Strobel & Salzman from prospective clients?

Mr. STROBEL. No; that activity has dwindled to the point where I can say as of now that is not the case, though I have in the past, while I was down there

Mr. MALETZ. While you were down there you did seek to obtain new business?

Mr. STROBEL. I have seen clients or prospective clients on business. Mr. MALETZ. Is it not true that in August 1955 you personally secured a contract from the architectural firm of Ferenz & Taylor for Strobel & Salzman to draft the engineering plans for Junior High School No. 45 in New York City?

Mr. STROBEL. I don't think it would be totally correct to say that I personally secured that contract. I did personally see Mr. Ferenz, together with Mr. Schwarz, saw him once, and that is all.

Mr. MALETZ. About the possibility of getting that job?

Mr. STROBEL. That is right. But I did not participate in the negotiations of the contract.

Mr. MALETZ. Is it also not true that your firm had previously attempted to secure work from Ferenz & Taylor, but without success? Mr. STROBEL. Yes; I think there is in the record a letter that I wrote to them several years ago.

Mr. MALETZ. That would be dated February 10, 1948?
Mr. STROBEL. That may be correct.

Mr. MALETZ. Now, did you not also in February 1955 personally secure a contract from Chapman, Evans & Delehanty for Strobel & Salzman to draft the engineering plans for the Brooklyn College Library?

Mr. STROBEL. No, sir.

Mr. MALETZ. Did you have any personal discussions with Mr. Evans, Randolph Evans of Chapman, Evans & Delehanty, concerning that possibility?

Mr. STROBEL. I don't think I talked to him about that project. He is a friend of mine, but I doubt very much if I talked to him about that. Mr. MALETZ. Did you talk to Mr. Evans a number of times since April 1954 about business matters?

Mr. STROBEL. Yes. We have had an old subject or project that has been talked about for a long time. It has not materialized as yet. Mr. ROBB. Mr. Chairman, might I say something, sir?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBB. I don't want to have any misunderstanding. The date of April 1, 1954, has been mentioned, I know why. I understand, sir, that under the statute and the Executive orders Mr. Strobel, as a consultant, was not covered by the conflict-of-interest statute while he held that position.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be, sir. We are just asking some preliminary questions.

Mr. ROBB. Yes.

Mr. MALETZ. I might point out for the record, Mr. Robb, that Mr. Strobel served as an 8-hour-a-day, 5-day-a-week consultant

Mr. ROBB. That is correct.

Mr. MALETZ. And there is some question as to whether a consultant can serve on that basis. A consultant is ordinarily retained to work on an intermittent basis 1 or 2 days a week or 1 or 2 days a month. And we shall check with the Civil Service Commission on that very point, which we have in connection with other matters.

Mr. ROBB. While you are checking this-I haven't checked this myself, Mr. Maletz-but the Executive Orders are 10182, of November 21, 1950, as amended, by Executive Order 10205 of January 16, 1951, which covered that job.

Mr. MALETZ. I might say, sir, that we have checked with the Civil Service Commission in the past concerning this matter, and the Civil Service Commission has informed us that only intermittent consultants are covered by that particular Executive order.

Mr. ROBB. I don't know, Mr. Maletz.

Mr. MALETZ. I am very glad you raised the question.

The CHAIRMAN. You might, if you wish, insert at this point the contents of those Executive orders.

Mr. ROBB. I don't have them here, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MALETZ. I shall insert that in the record, Mr. Chairman.

(The Executive orders are as follows:)

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10182

NOVEMBER 21, 1950.

PROVIDING FOR THE APPOINTMENT OF CERTAIN PERSONS UNDER THE DEFENSE PRODUCTION ACT OF 1950 AND PRESCRIBING REGULATIONS FOR THEIR EXEMPTION FROM CERTAIN CONFLICT OF INTEREST STATUTES

By virtue of the authority vested in me by the Defense Production Act of 1950, approved September 8, 1950 (Public Law 774, 81st Cong.), hereinafter referred to as the Act, it is hereby ordered as follows:

PART I

SEC. 101. (a) The head of any department or agency delegated or assigned functions under the Act pursuant to Executive Order No. 10161, of September 9, 1950, is hereby delegated the authority provided by subsection 710 (b) of that Act to employ persons of outstanding experience and ability without compensation. The authority delegated by this subsection 101 (a) may not be redelegated. (b) Such heads of departments or agencies are further delegated the authority provided by subsection 710 (c) of that Act to employ experts and consultants, or organizations thereof.

(c) Such heads of departments or agencies are further delegated the authority provided by subsection 710 (d) of that Act to utilize the services of Federal, State, and local agencies and to utilize and establish such regional, local, or other agencies, and to utilize such voluntary and uncompensated services as may from time to time be needed.

SEC. 102. The head of any department or agency delegated authority pursuant to subsections 101 (a) and 101 (b) of this part shall be guided in the exercise of that authority by the following policies:

(a) So far as possible, operations under the Act shall be carried on by fulltime, salaried employees of the Government, and appointments under this authority shall be to advisory or consultative positions only.

(b) Appointments to positions other than advisory or consultative may be made under this order only when the requirements of the position are such that the incumbent must personally possess outstanding experience and ability not obtainable on a full-time, salaried basis.

(c) In the appointment of personnel and in assignment of their duties, the head of the department or agency involved shall take steps to avoid, to as great an extent as possible, any conflict between the governmental duties and the private interests of such personnel.

SEC. 103. The authority delegated by subsection 101 (c) to utilize at the regional and local levels voluntary and uncompensated services is not subject to the policies prescribed in section 102. Such authority may not be exercised, however, to fill positions subject to the Classification Act of 1949.

PART II

SEC. 201. Any person employed under Part I of this order is hereby exempted, with respect to such employment, from the operation of sections 281, 283, 284, 434, and 1914 of Title 18, United States Code, and section 190 of the Revised Statutes (5 U. S. C. 99), except as specified in the following subsections:

(a) Exemption hereunder shall not extend to the negotiation or execution, by an appointee under this order, of Government contracts with the private employer of such appointee or with any corporation, joint stock company, association, firm, partnership, or other entity in the pecuniary profits or contracts of which the appointee has any direct or indirect interest.

(b) Exemption hereunder shall not extend to making any recommendation or taking any action with respect to individual applications to the Government for relief or assistance, on appeal or otherwise, under the provisions of the Act made by the private employer of the appointee or by any corporation, joint stock company, association, firm, partnership, or other entity in the pecuniary profits or contracts of which the appointee has any direct or indirect interest.

(c) In the case of appointments under subsections 101 (a) and 101 (b) hereof, exemption hereunder shall not extend to the prosecution by the appointee, or participation by the appointee in any fashion in the prosecution, of any claims against the Government involving any matter concerning which the appointee had

any responsibility during his employment under this order, during the period of such employment and the further period of two years after the termination of such employment. In the case of appointments under subsection 101 (c) nereof, exemption hereunder shall not extend to the prosecution by the appointee, or participation by the appointee in any fashion in the prosecution, of any claims against the Government growing out of any matter with respect to which the appointee was personally concerned in his official capacity during his employment under this order, during the period of such employment and the further period of two years after the termination of such employment.

(d) In the case of appointments under subsections 101 (a) and 101 (b) hereof, exemption hereunder shall not extend to the receipt or payment of salary in connection with the appointee's Government service hereunder from any source othr than the private employer of the appointee at the time of his appointment hereunder.

(e) Exemption from sections 434 and 1914 of Title 18, United States Code, shall not extend to persons appointed as experts or consultants under subsection 101 (b) hereof.

PART III

SEC. 301. Appointments under subsection 101 (a) of this order shall be supported by written certification by the head of the employing department or agency:

(a) That the appointment is necessary and appropriate in order to carry out the provisions of the Act;

(b) That the duties of the position to which the appointment is being made require outstanding experience and ability;

(c) That the appointee has the outstanding experience and ability required by the position; and

(d) That the department or agency head has been unable to obtain a person with the qualifications necessary for the position on a full-time, salaried basis. SEC. 302. The heads of the departments or agencies making appointments under this order shall file with the Division of the Federal Register (for public inspection but not for publication) a statement including the name of the appointee, the section of this order under which he was appointed, the employing department or agency, the title of his position, and the name of his private employer. SEC. 303. All appointments under subsections 710 (b), 710 (c), and 710 (d) of the Act shall be made under the terms of this order after the date hereof, and appointments heretofore made under those subsections of the Act shall be deemed for all purposes to have been made under this order upon compliance with the preceding sections of this part.

SEC. 304. At least once every three months, the Chairman of the United States Civil Service Commission shall survey appointments made under this order and shall report his findings to the President and make such recommendations as he may deem proper.

THE WHITE HOUSE, November 21, 1950.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10205

HARRY S. TRUMAN.

JANUARY 16, 1951.

AMENDING EXECUTIVE ORDER No. 10182 RELATING TO THE APPOINTMENT OF CERTAIN PERSONS UNDER THE DEFENSE PRODUCTION ACT OF 1950

By virtue of the authority vested in me by the Defense Production Act of 1950, approved September 8, 1950 (Public Law 774, 81st Cong.), it is hereby ordered, effective November 21, 1950, as follows:

1. Subsection 101 (a) of Executive Order No. 10182 of November 21, 1950, is amended to read as follows:

"SEC. 101. (a) The head of any department or agency delegated or assigned functions under the Act is hereby delegated the authority provided by subsection 710 (b) of the Act to employ persons of outstanding experience and ability without compensation. Authority to employ persons under this subsection 101 (a) in any such department or agency shall not be redelegated by the head of such department or agency."

2. Subsection 201 (d) of the said Executive Order No 10182 is amended to read as follows: