Mr. ANDREWS. That is all.

Mr. PHILLIPS. It just occurred to me, Judge Kern, that I seem to be the only one of the members of the subcommittee who is not an attorney, so I will leave the technical details to them. I have this question. If I ask you about the average cost that does not mean very much. What is the smallest figure involved in cases brought before your court; how small are some of those cases?

Judge KERN. They can be any amount, sir.

Mr. PHILLIPS. How small in money are some of the cases that do come before your court?

Judge KERN. I would say some involve around $100. I had an interesting experience in Chicago once. I heard a case involving the Pullman Co. one morning, and there was $5,000,000 involved in taxes. I went on the bench in the afternoon and there was a case involving the cleaning and pressing bills of a railroad conductor and the total amount involved was $87, and it was a pretty well tried case, and I was very much interested in it. Of course, it happened to be a test case. The railroad union was raising this question as to whether they should pay for the cost of their uniforms and the upkeep of them. You get cases involving small amounts, and it depends upon the localities in so many of them, but there is not limit to it. You get questions of dependencies and things of that kind, and you run the whole gamut, from small amounts to enormous amounts, and sometimes the ones involving the smaller amounts will give you more trouble. They will just wear you out.

Mr. PHILLIPS. It is obvious, sitting here and listening to this year after year, that you are with great difficulty keeping up, and you are not getting ahead on the number of cases you have. In your opinion why is the number of tax cases increasing like that over the years?

Judge KERN. Largely because of the increase in the number of taxpayers, and the complexities of the revenue laws also contribute to it. and then taxes are getting up to the point where they are pinching awfully hard.

Mr. PHILLIPS. And people take cases to you which they would not have taken to you 10 years ago?

Judge KERN. Yes, they might, but I would say the greatest reason is the increase in the number of taxpayers and the increasing burden. on the individual taxpayers, and also the lawyers are giving more thought to taxation now.

Mr. ANDREWS. Let me ask you one question here off the record, Judge.

(Discussion off the record.)

AVERAGE LENGTH OF TIME REQUIRED TO GET INTO COURT

Mr. THOMAS. Judge, what is the average length of time it takes a man to get into court after he files his petition?

Judge KERN. That depends upon the locality, sir. Down in Houston, we will say, we go down there about twice a year, and I would say it would take him about 6 months to have his case heard from the time he files his petition.

Mr. THOMAS. What about New York?

Judge KERN. We are up in New York pretty often, but they have a tremendous backlog of tax cases up there.

Mr. THOMAS. What is the average length of time it takes for a man to get his case heard?

Judge KERN. I would say about 8 or 9 months after he files his case. Mr. THOMAS. In other words, it takes a man no longer than 8 or 9 months to get his case heard after he once files his petition?

Judge KERN. That is right. It depends upon the locality, because in the case of some localities we are not able to get there more than once every 2 years.

Mг. THOMAS. Thank you very much, Judge.

THURSDAY, JANUARY 10, 1952.

INDIAN CLAIMS COMMISSION

WITNESSES

LOUIS J. O'MARR, ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER
WILLIAM M. HOLT, ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER
JAMES A. LANGSTON, ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER

Mr. THOMAS. Gentlemen, we have the pleasure of having with us this afternoon Commissioners O'Marr and Holt, and Mr. Langston, administrative officer, of the Indian Claims Commission.

We wish all of you gentlemen a very happy new year.

Mr. O'MARR. Thank you.

Mr. THOMAS. If either of you has a statement for us, we will be glad to hear from you.

GENERAL STATEMENT

Mr. O'MARR. We have no formal statement to make here, except perhaps I should state that we are only requesting an increase of $11,200. The principal item is $9,600 for a position of chief investigator of our Commission, which has not been filled for a couple of years because we have not needed one. But we have reached a time in our work where it becomes absolutely necessary that we have the assistance of a man who will fill this position.

As to the details of the other items totaling $1,600, I will leave that to Mr. Langston, our administrative officer.

I might say, also, that up until now we have not been pressed, because of the inability of the Department of Justice to get ready to try these cases. It has had a wholly inadequate staff of lawyers to handle the cases, but now I understand they have increased their staff by perhaps 8 or 10 men; so we can expect from now on that many more cases will be ready for trial than there have been in the past. Outside of that, I think the increases are a routine matter; are they not?

Mr. LANGSTON. Yes. There is an item of $1,025 that relates to within-grade promotions, the extra payday cost and length of time in grades; and $575 of which $300 is for travel, $229 for equipment, $46 for additional Federal insurance contribution taxes. That makes $1,600 in addition to the $9,600, or a total of $11,200.

NUMBER OF CLAIMS FILED

Mr. O'MARR. Perhaps I should call the committee's attention to the fact that there have been 852 claims filed with the Commission. How many were filed in July and August?

Mr. LANGSTON. Approximately 530 filed from July 1 to August 13. Mr. PHILLIPS. The expiration date for filing claims was August 13, 1951. What was the total number filed at that time?

Mr. HOLT. Eight hundred and fifty-two.

BUDGET SUMMARY

Mr. THOMAS. Let me summarize this budget briefly. Last year you were given $89,600. This year you want $104,700. But the $59,600 does include all the pay for last year. So you want $11,200 more than in the fiscal year 1953-$9,600 is for a new position, which will give you 12 employees, and you now have 11. Your other objects are an increase of $1,600 for printing and binding, travel, supplies, and material.

Is that the picture?

Mr. LANGSTON. That other increase of $1,600 includes, besides $1.025 for personal services, only travel, equipment, and FICA taxes-$1,025 of the $1,600 includes $980 within-grade promotions and $45 relating to time in grade and the extra pay day. Then there is $575 relating to travel, equipment, and social security, in the amounts just given.

Mr. THOMAS. One is the social-security item under the Tax Act, and the other is within-grade promotions?

Mr. LANGSTON. Social security, travel and equipment, and within grade promotions, extra pay day, and longer time in grade.

Mr. THOMAS. The items mentioned total $1,600?
Mr. LANGSTON. That is right.

DUTIES AND FUNCTIONS OF THE COMMISSION

Mr. THOMAS. At this point in the record we will insert beginning on page 3 of the justifications all under the subhead "Duties and factions," which shows the act set a limitation date of August 13, 1451, for cases to be filed, and the Commission is supposed to wind up when-in July 1955?

Mr. HOLT. 1957.

Mr. LANGSTON. April 1957-10 years after the Commission started. Mr. THOMAS. April 1956; is it not?

Mr. LANGSTON. No; 1957.

Mг. THOMAS. April 10, 1957?

Mr. HOLT. That is right.

The matter above referred to is as follows:)

A. DUTIES AND FUNCTIONS

The duties of the Commission are to hear and determine all claims arising under section 2 of the act, up to and including August 13, 1946, on behalf of any Indian tre, band, or other identifiable group of American Indians residing within the territorial limits of the United States or Alaska. The act provides that the claims may be heard notwithstanding any statute of limitations or laches but that all her defenses shall be available to the United States.

7. Commission is required to make written findings of fact, conclusions of law 3 opinions in each claim decided, and, when an award is made, to state the t of any allowable offsets, counterclaims, or other deductions. Decisions of the Commission may be appealed to the Court of Claims, and decisions of that are subject to review by the Supreme Court of the United States.

STATUS OF CLAIMS

Mr. THOMAS. We will also insert in the record the bottom of page 3 and all of page 4, which shows you have 852 claims filed with a potental dollar value of $3,016,377,000, exclusive of interest. There is no ing what the interest will be.

Mr. LANGSTON. I might also say there that includes only the amount where claims state the amount. There are many claims where the claimant does not state any amount.

(The matter above referred to is as follows:)

B. STATUS OF CLAIMS

The

The claims filed by the end of the filing period, August 13, 1951, were 852. amounts specifically claimed, or estimated where possible in claims not stating the amount, approximate $3,016,377,000 exclusive of interest.

Of the 852 claims filed, 530 were filed between July 1, 1951, and the expiration date for filing, August 13, 1951. The claims involve large sums and present complicated questions; and they call for the most serious study and analysis of the facts and the law applicable thereto.

The status of the 852 claims on December 31, 1951, is given below:

The Commission has decided 36 claims, of which 7 received awards totaling $5,001,594.48 and 29 were dismissed. In addition, three claims have been found to be entitled to awards, the amounts of which are yet to be determined.

During the past fiscal year the Commission acted on 181 motions; and heard testimony, oral arguments, and motions relating to 97 claims at 63 hearings in Washington and the field. In the past 6 months of the present fiscal year, the Commission has acted on 408 motions, and has heard testimony and motions in 38 claims at 22 hearings in Washington and in the field.

Mr. PHILLIPS. What disturbs me, Mr. Chairman, and I ask this as a question of the witness, Mr. Langston, you have apparently in the life of the Commission had filed with you 852 claims, which is the final figure unless Congress should reopen the door?

Mr. LANGSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. PHILLIPS. That is the final figure as of now; yet in the life of the Commission you have actually been able to settle only 53 of those claims, with 220 in the mill and 579 yet to be acted upon. It seems to me at the rate you are progressing you are going to have to do something to bring this to a conclusion by 1957.

Mr. O'MARR. We tried to explain that. There are two problems that have confronted us from the very beginning, and one has been the inability of the Department of Justice to handle these cases. They have not had adequate help. In addition to that, a great many of these cases require a report from the General Accounting Office, and the General Accounting Office has been away behind. They are just now beginning to catch up on those reports.

Mr. PHILLIPS. Let me ask you two questions, then. First, with the increase in service, if I may call it that, on the part of the Attorney General and tee GAO, how long do you think it is going to take you to finish? The other question is, What have you been doing? waiting for these claims to come in?

Mr. O'MARR. We have not been waiting at all. We have been very busy all the time trying these cases. For example, we have at the present time 91 cases in which only partial hearings have been had.