TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 1966 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS, Washington, D.C. The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, the Honorable Thomas E. Morgan (chairman) presiding. Chairman MORGAN. The committee will come to order. The committee meets this morning in open session to begin hearings on the Great Lakes Basin compact, H.R. 937 and similar bills. (The following bills to grant the consent of Congress to a Great Lakes Basin compact are now pending before the Committee on Foreign Affairs: H.R. 937 by Hon. Clement J. Zablocki, Wisconsin. H.R. 15042 by Hon. Charles C. Diggs, Jr., Michigan). Chairman MORGAN. Our first witness this morning is Hon. Delbert L. Latta, a distinguished Member of Congress from Ohio, who has a definite interest in the legislation before us. It is a real honor and privilege to welcome you to the Committee on Foreign Affairs, Mr. Latta. STATEMENT OF HON. DELBERT L. LATTA, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OHIO Mr. LATTA. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Let me say I would not have missed this opportunity for the world. This is the first opportunity I have had to appear before this committee. I have a Rules Committee meeting at 10:30, and I will not be able to stay too long. I am delighted that you set down this series of bills dealing with the Great Lakes compact. Very briefly, I would just like to go into the bill H.R. 12294 that I introduced. Before I do that, let me say that as I view this situation, actually all we are asking is the blessing of the Federal Government to such a compact because it is already in existence. It is operating. All the States-Illinois, Indiana. Michigan, Minnesota, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin--have already adopted the compact and are paying into the compact to sup be port it. This is an advisory compact. It is not compulsory. The States can pull out of it within 6 months' notice. Let me say that the purposes of this compact, or at least this bill would grant the consent of Congress to any and all of the States that I have just mentionedIllinois, Indiana, Michigan, Minnesota, New York, Ohio, Pennsyl vania, and Wisconsin-to enter into a Great Lakes Basin compact to establish and maintain an intergovernmental agency designated the "Great Lakes Commission" for the conservation and development of the water resources of the Great Lakes Basin. It further provides that the Province of Ontario and the Province of Quebec may be a party to this compact. Each party under this bill or State. may represented by a maximum of five commissioners who shall serve without compensation with the expense to be borne by the State of representation. This compact shall be binding on each party State until renounced by the legislature of such State. The powers of the commission are restricted solely to that of a consultative and recom mendatory agency which shall cooperate with the agencies of the United States, report annually to the Congress and to the President. and make available to the Federal Government any information within its possession and provide free access to its records for duly authorized representatives of the Government. The first article of my bill, H.R. 12294, deals with the purposes of the compact as I have just outlined. Article II deals with the matter of enactment by the legislatures and when this matter is enacted by the legislatures it will become operative. But this has already been done. "B" of article II provides for the entry of the Provinces of Ontario and Quebec. Article III creates the Great Lakes Commission as such. Article IV establishes the Great Lakes Commission and sets out the number of commissioners, et cetera. On page 6 under "H" The Executive Director of the Commission on behalf of, as trustee for, and with the approval of the Commission, may borrow, accept, or contract for the services of personnel from any state or government or any subdivision or agency thereof, from any inter-governmental agency, or from any institution, person, firm or corporation; and may accept for any of the Commission's purposes and functions under this compact any and all donations, gifts, and grants of money, equipment, supplies, materials, and services from any state or government of any subdivision or agency thereof or inter-governmental agency or from any institution, person, firm, or corporation and may receive and utilize the same. At that point, I might say that I have been informed that each of the participating States are now putting in $8,000. Under article VI on page 9, it deals with the powers of the commission. As I say, these are primarily powers of recommendation. I believe that concludes my analysis of the bill. If I may answer any questions on this. I would be very happy to. There are a couple of other witnesses here who perhaps could go into the technical aspects of the bill more completely and fully than I. Chairman MORGAN. Thank you, Mr. Latta. Mr. Latta, years ago the Committee on Foreign Affairs held hearings on this subject. The hearings in 1957 and 1958 were printed. The older members of the committee are all familiar with the purpose of this legislation. As far as the Chair is concerned, I know of only one group which has asked to appear in opposition. That is the New York State Power Authority. I have felt for a good many years that the Great Lakes Commission could be of value to the States that border the Great Lakes area. My own State borders on Lake Erie. We intend to give this most careful and sympathetic consideration. I very much appreciate your appearance here this morning. Mr. LATTA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In conclusion, just let me say that Congressman Jones' subcommittee was out in Toledo, Ohio, a couple of weeks ago on a matter of pollution. The area I think really became aware of the pollution problem in Lake Erie. They did a tremendous job in this regard. I have learned here this morning, in talking to the gentlemen present, that they have a subcommittee dealing with pollution. If for no other reason than dealing with this problem of making advisory recommendations on this matter of pollution, I think this commission should be ratified. Mrs. BOLTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am very glad to welcome you to the committee, Mr. Latta. Mrs. BOLTON. We have had the objections up to this point of the Ohio Chamber of Commerce. I believe your bill does away with their objection. Mr. LATTA. I understand they do not have an objection and they now favor the bill, including the Cleveland Chamber. Mrs. BOLTON. Which means a great deal to us. On that basis, I did go into it very much in detail some time ago when we had it up before and objected. But I would join the chamber of commerce in not objecting if we get your bill. Mr. LATTA. Thank you. Mrs. BOLTON. Thank you very much for presenting it. Mr. LATTA. I might say that the chairman of this committee has received the report that he was kind enough to give me from the Department of State, Department of Commerce, and I think the Justice Department, favoring the bill. I think the Commerce Department pointed out in one bill there was a slight objection that could be corrected through amendment. Mrs. BOLTON. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. ZABLOCKI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am not going to ask any questions. I do want to welcome Mr. Latta's joining in this effort. As you recall, Mr. Chairman, I was one of the early sponsors of the legislation back in 1959 and introduced H.R. 937 in 1965. I understand, as the Congressman has stated, that the Great Lakes Basin Commission is a quasi-official organization at the present time. This legislation would give it the prestige and recognition that it needs to deal with the problems of the Great Lakes more effectively. Congressional approval of the Great Lakes Basin compact would eliminate any constitutional issues. Unfortunately, there is some misapprehension as to the reason for a Great Lakes Basin compact. Our colleague has emphasized the problems involved in coping with water pollution. The Great Lakes Basin compact facilitates the effort to deal with that problem and many others in the interest of all the States of the Great Lakes region. I want to thank you for your contribution. I have no questions. Mr. LATTA. Thank you. Chairman MORGAN. Mr. Frelinghuysen. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I recognize your time is limited, Mr. Latta, but I have a few questions to ask about the purpose of this legislation. If the commission has been established for a decade or more, why is congressional consent needed? Mr. LATTA. As I indicated in my remarks, perhaps just as a blessing of the Federal Government. There is not anything provided in this bill for the Federal Government to pay any part of the cost. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. To use your expression, why does the Federal Government need to bless it? Mr. LATTA. I would think primarily because we take in the Provinces of Ontario and Quebec. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. They are presently members of the compact! Mr. LATTA. I cannot answer that, but I do not believe they are. They say no. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Is it your feeling that this bill gives approval to the entry of these Provinces into the compact? Is this the basic purpose? Mr. LATTA. I would think, without checking on the legal aspects but being a lawyer, that is the reason we are before this committee, because of the Quebec and Ontario entrance. They could not under the Constitution enter into this type of compact without the approval of Congress. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. You really are asking us to approve a compact because it has an international flavor, is that it? Mr. LATTA. That is correct. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. They would not be able to cooperate in the form of advising and recommending without congressional approval. Mr. LATTA. I suppose they could recommend. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. What else are they doing? Mr. LATTA. That is about all. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I do not think I understand what the point is, then. If it is simply a question of recommending and they can do that anyway, why is congressional approval needed? It sounds to me as if perhaps more is involved. The language on page 6 says the Executive Director may accept gifts, grants, or money from any State or government. Would this constitute an authorization for an appro priation by the Federal Government? Mr. LATTA. I would not think so. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. You would not think so? Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I would think quite possibly it might. This specifically gives congressional approval to the acceptance by the Executive Director of the Commission of the grant of money from any State or government. I certainly think that could be construed as an authorization for an appropriation. Mr. LATTA. I would say you would have to stretch your interpretation a long way, Congressman. I do not think so. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. You would think we should not authorize any appropriations? Mr. LATTA. I would think not; certainly not under that language. I certainly would not construe it as such. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I notice on page 7 of your bill, or the Zablocki bill, there is a provision “J”— No tax levied or imposed by any party state or any political subdivision thereof shall be deemed to apply to property, transactions, or income of the Commission. Does that mean the Federal Government also cannot levy taxes? Mr. LATTA. Party, State or any political subdivision of a State. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Does that mean the Federal Government cannot levy taxes? Mr. LATTA. It does not say the Federal Government. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. That is why I am asking you, would this mean that the Federal Government could levy taxes against the Commission? Mr. LATTA. I would not think so. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. You would not think so? Mr. LATTA. No. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I thought you said you would think so. Mr. LATTA. Under this language you read, "No taxes levied or imposed." Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. The Federal Government is not a party state. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Whether the Federal Government might be able to levy taxes against the property of the Commission. This says any State levying any taxes. My question is whether the Federal Government can. Mr. LATTA. You are asking me a tax question that perhaps should be referred to the Ways and Means Committee. Mr. ZABLOCKI. Is it your understanding that the Commission has Federal authority, they could levy taxes? Mr. LATTA. I am going to let the Ways and Means Committee answer that. I could not answer it. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. Zablocki's attitude is that because we are giving approval to this, the Federal Government would be barred from taxing this Commission. I realize your time is limited and perhaps we need someone who knows the technical side of this. Mr. LATTA. I would say that is probably true. There are a lot of technical questions that might be raised like you are raising here. I am not qualified to answer. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. But your basic point is that the blessing of the Federal Government is needed in order for the commission to incorporate or to invite two Provinces of Canada to join the compact, that a voluntary association of this kind cannot be accomplished without specific congressional approval. Mr. LATTA. I would say it would be skirting the intents and purposes of the provision that provides that you should not go into such a compact with a foreign government without the consent of the Congress. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. |