Government to get across and make use of the Government to get back.

Mr. RAKER. You mean to give them a chance and give them the first right of employment?

Mr. FURUSETH. Yes; the first right of employment.

Mr. RAKER. And the second right, as you describe it?

Mr. FURUSETH. Yes. The consuls have made reports. There are a great many of them. Men are coming in practically on every transport. They were left behind in Manila, sometimes through their own fault, but they are willing to ship on the next boat. Sometimes it is not their fault and they are starving on the beach in Manila. The governor general has to get the transports to send them back to the United States. They come there and are begging for a chance to ship in an American ship going out again, but they can not do it, because the Filipinos are given preference.

As a matter of fact, it seems that they are taking them there with the deliberate purpose of dropping them. They want Filipinos, and they want them for this reason-you might as well get it frankly and brutally:

Filipinos have told me-not one, but a dozen-that they ship for Shipping Board wages, yes; but they have got to pay somebody so much until they have only $10 or $11 in wages left.

That is the explanation, to begin with, why Filipinos and Chinese are preferred. Secondly, they are expert smugglers. The Chinese will not give anybody away. They will take the penalty if caught. The Filipino goes very far, but does not go quite as far as the Chinese in that regard. They are not as silent as the Chinese. So the Filipinos are preferred next to the Chinese, but the Chinese above all.

Mr. RAKER. In other words, a Chinese will smuggle and keep still if caught and you can not get information out of him with pincers, is that it?

Mr. FURUSETH. That is it, exactly.

Mr. RAKER. Do you mean to tell the committee, from your observation, that these Filipinos pay somebody connected with the vessel part of their wages to be employed?

me.

Mr. FURUSETH. I certainly do, because the Filipinos tell that to Some of them have said, "I might as well quit sailing, because I can not earn anything this way. They take all the money from me to let me keep the job."

Mr. HOLADAY. Who takes it?

Mr. FURUSETH. Their own national on board of the vessel. They have got a Filipino boatswain who controls the employment of the Filipinos. The shipping of the men is referred to a Filipino boatswain and he picks them up and makes the arrangements with them. They hand the money to him and the money then goes, according to the statements given to me-I can not prove this-sometimes to the engineer, sometimes to the mate, sometimes to the steward, whoever it may be. We do not know how far it goes.

I can only say this, that some years ago I furnished the Committee on Merchant Marine and Fisheries with absolutely indisputable evidence that daily books kept by a shipping master in New York, sworn to by him, and put into the records of the Merchant Marine and Fisheries Committee, showed the date, the name of the ship, the

name of the captain, the name of the owner that got the money from him. He got it from the seaman and he gave it to them.

Mr. VINCENT. I do not understand why the United States Shipping Board will be interested in keeping a situation of that kind going.

Mr. FURUSETH. The United States Shipping Board is not interested in it, sir. The United States Shipping Board would like to abolish it, but the United States Shipping Board

Mr. VINCENT (interposing). Did not the gentleman just say that they had changed their order?

Mr. FURUSETH. They have changed the order; yes.

Mr. VINCENT. There must be a reason for that.

Mr. FURUSETH. The reason for it is this: The Shipping Board does not run the vessels. They pay the wages, but the private operators run the vessels. They run them under contract, the contract called M. O. 4, in which the cost of running the vessel is paid by the Shipping Board for a percentage of the income which sometimes is all of it, that being paid by the owner.

Mr. McREYNOLDS. They pay them a certain per cent of the gross receipts?

Mr. FURUSETH. To the operators.

Mr. McREYNOLDS. Yes.

Mr. FURUSETH. And the result of it is that the vessels are running behind, as a general proposition.

Mr. RAKER. This is a matter that will throw some light on it.

Mr. FURUSETH. Just one moment. I want to make this clear to the Congressman. The ship operators want these men for their own reasons. The Shipping Board do not want them. But the Shipping Board has nothing to say about it now, because the power of picking the personnel of the vessel has been handed over to some one else. The shipowners do not want the Americans at all. The best proof of that is that they can not be found in the coastwise trade.

Mr. VINCENT. Did not the other gentleman say that the Shipping Board was the one that made the orders?

Mr. FURUSETH. No; he meant to say that the Emergency Fleet Corporation officials made the order.

Mr. VINCENT. Then I will change the wording of my question. Why is the Emergency Fleet Corporation interested in keeping this situation going?

Mr. FURUSETH. Because the operators want it. The operator of the ship wants it that way. They are trying to do what the operator wants in order to keep things peaceable.

Mr. VINCENT. Is the attitude of the Emergency Fleet Corporation different from that of the Shipping Board?

Mr. FURUSETH. Certainly, on that question; absolutely so.

Mr. RAKER. I have here a statement in a paper from Manila which Mr. Flynn hands me. I want to read this one item. It is a comment by Bill, and asks if it is the attitude of the shipowners: "American engine-run crews will not be a success in the trans-Pacific service; they never were and they never will be.'

In other words, an American never can handle an engine, but you can take Malays, Hindus, Filipinos, Chinamen, and Japanese and they can do the work. But an American is incapable of performing

the duties on an American vessel. Is that about the situation, Mr. Flynn?

Mr. FLYNN. Yes, sir. That is the idea and that is the situation. The Filipino, of course, is not eligible to become a citizen of the United States.

Mr. RAKER. Is it a fact that Americans are incompetent and incapable as engineers and firemen, etc., to run American vessels?

Mr. FLYNN. That is not true, Mr. Congressman. I have tried to explain here that even in the face of all the opposition of the shipowners and everybody else, who contended that the Filipinos could do this and do that, etc., since they have had the American crews on those particular ships I spoke of, the Americans have proved conclusively that they were wrong. They do not compare, one-twothree, as far as the upkeep and general look and appearance and everything else of the ship is concerned, since the Americans have been on them. There is no argument about that.

Mr. FURUSETH. You mean that the upkeep and condition of the ships is much better now than it was before?

Mr. FLYNN. That is it, exactly. They are manned in the deck department and down below by Americans.

Mr. RAKER. Can it be possible that any class of people on earth can excel in doing work and that the American can not take it over and do it?

Mr. FLYNN. No, sir. I, as an American, concede that to no oneand I am a practical man.

Mr. VINCENT. A company that runs a ship on the ocean does it for profit. What I gather from what has just been said is that it has been proved that if they hire Amercans, the ship is run more efficiently than it was when they hired other people. Yet, in the face of that, it is stated that they want to hire the other people, and that the American Fleet Corporation has changed the order so that they can do it. There must be a reason for it. There has not been any reason suggested here that would take care of the economic situation that this gentleman is presenting. I would like to 'know the reason why men who are in business for profit will do what you say is to their direct disadvantage to do.

Mr. FLYNN. In the first place, it was explained to you that the operator has not a thing to do with the operation expense. That is borne by the Government. But there is a contemplated sale. We are told that the Shipping Board is expected to go out of business, in so far as operating ships is concerned, any minute. That being the case, they want, if possible, to be in a position to have that kind of a crew aboard to avoid any future criticism as to their Americanism or otherwise. In other words, they are looking a long way ahead, with the object of cheap, subservient labor, with no interest so far as the American merchant marine is concerned. That is the reason.

Mr. VINCENT. If their other labor is inefficient and uneconomical, how will it produce beneficial results?

Mr. FLYNN. The shipping owner does not have to worry. He is covered by insurance. He does not have to worry if his ship is being operated with a cheap crew. He gets more the cheaper the crew is. Mr. VINCENT. So that he makes a profit on it?

Mr. FLYNN. Yes. But he is trying to tell you that his interest lies with an American merchant marine and everything pertaining to it.

Mr. VINCENT. If his competitors, who are not subject to our laws, are operating over the same ocean in the same kind of trade with these cheap crews, how is his boat going to stay on the sea if he does not use the same crew?

Mr. FLYNN. It has been proven that that differential, as far as efficiency is concerned, can be overcome.

Mr. VINCENT. But these men can not see it, I suppose?

Mr. FLYNN. They do not want to see it.

Mr. VINCENT. Why don't they, if it is beneficial to them?

Mr. FLYNN. I have not gotten to that phase of it with them, Mr. Congressman. I am here trying to explain to the committee

Mr. VINCENT (interposing). I never saw the American business man yet who did not want to put his business on a basis that would produce the most profit. If it can be shown that the operation of ships by the crew that you want to have operate them is beneficial in the long run, I can not see any reason why it is not done voluntarily.

Mr. FLYNN. I might say this, Mr. Congressman, in so far as your question is concerned, that prior to my leaving San Francisco one of the ships that was formerly owned by the Government and sold to the Robert Dollar Steamship Co. carried two icemen and an electrician. They were Americans and were on the ship ever since the day she was launched. They are now under private control, attached to the Dollar Steamship Co. Those men are discharged and three Chinese were put in their places. That is something I can not understand, either.

Mr. HOLADAY. Were the wages the same?

Mr. FLYNN. Absolutely.

Mr. VINCENT. You claim they did that to their own disadvantage? Mr. FLYNN. I do not know why they did it, Mr. Congressman.. That is something that probably you might be able to reason out. They do those things. There is a reason for their doing it.

My understanding is, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, that, in so far as the Filipino question is concerned, it directly deals with immigration. Of course, we had to go into detail in our relations thereto in order to try to bring out that point before the committee. We say that those things are done, and we can give you. proof of them.

Mr. RAKER. Is that all, Mr. Flynn?

Mr. FLYNN. Mr. Box asked a question here yesterday with reference to our attitude toward the I. W. W. organization. I wanted to assure him and the members of the committee to-day that in so far as that organization is concerned and in so far as we are concerned, it is a fight to a finish. They have thrown down the gauntlet and we have accepted the challenge, and we ask no quarter. If we can get fair, honest support from the shipowners or the Government in trying to kill that kind of a snake, we welcome it. If, on the other hand, we can not get it, we are going to continue and put them out of business. That is our attitude, in so far as that particular institution is concerned.

Mr. RAKER. That relates to the I. W. W. and their activities?

Mr. FLYNN. Yes, sir; and anybody else that is in sympathy with them.

Mr. FURUSETH. If the Congressman will put the questions to me that he asked Mr. Flynn, I will try to answer them.

Mr. VINCENT. I do not care, if the committee wants to hear another speech on the subject.

Mr. FURUSETH. I am not going to make a speech. I am going to answer the questions, whatever questions you have in mind, and back my answers up with the facts.

Mr. VINCENT. I am not running this committee. If the committee wants to hear from you, I shall be very happy to hear you. If you want to answer the questions I asked, go ahead and answer them. I shall be glad to hear your answers. I asked for informa

tion.

STATEMENT OF MR. JEREMIAH J. HURLEY, UNITED STATES IMMIGRATION SERVICE

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hurley, just what are your duties in the Immigration Service?

Mr. HURLEY. I am a special representative of the Bureau of Immigration of the Department of Labor and have to do with the seamen's work.

Mr. RAKER. Referring to subdivisions (f) and (g) of committee print No. 3, you have heard the testimony introduced here during the past two or three days, and you have had years of experience in dealing with seamen in the Immigration Service.

Mr. HURLEY. That is true.

Mr. RAKER. Tell the committee, please, how this work has been done and is being done and what effect, in your judgment, the proposed legislation would have in trying to prevent undesirable aliens from coming to the United States in violation of law.

Mr. HURLEY. Judging by my observations, made while visiting the chief ports of the United States, since the act of 1917 became effective, and particularly since the passage of the act of 1924, I am of the opinion that the act of 1924 has prevented to a large extent the introduction into this country of a large number of aliens who could not come as passengers and be admitted under the immigration laws, and who have adopted the guise of seamen to evade our laws.

I have some figures with me which I obtained at New York recently, and which tell of the operation of the new law since it became effective on July 1, 1924. It covers up to December 31, 1924. I would like to read them for the benefit of the committee.

Mr. RAKER. Proceed to do so, Mr. Hurley.

Mr. HURLEY. I recently made an investigation at the ports of Boston, Providence (R. I.), New York, Baltimore, and Philadelphia. The figures furnished are as follows:

Seamen statistics for the period beginning July 1, 1924, and ending December 31, 1924, port of Boston, Mass.

Number of vessels boarded..
Number of seamen inspected.
Number of afflicted seamen..
Number of deserting seamen.

795

30, 404

97

260