certain aliens, and for other purposes, and in that bill are clauses affecting more or less alien seamen citizens. They have been prepared with the best information the committee could get, but there are two or three remaining suggestions as to clauses now in H. R. 11796, introduced on January 20. We have not reached a discussion of those except incidentally yesterday, but the whole testimony is running to two proposed paragraphs not in this bill.

I want to ask Mr. Furuseth if he has read 11796 as ordered reported?

Mr. FURUSETH. All of it; no.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you read the sailor provisions?

Mr. FURUSETH. I have read the sailor provisions; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you found anything in there that would help the situation in connection with sailors deserting?

Mr. FURUSETH. I have found nothing that would prevent a seaman from deserting and I have found nothing that will prevent them from loading up the country, and I have found no means of getting rid of them. The hole is wide open. If you provide enough money, you have provided among other things that men found in the coastwise trade should be deported. If you furnish enough money to deport them the department will see that it is done, while you will provide in this for the deportation of a very large number of people. There is no question at all about that, but at the same time I must, in honesty to myself and you and everybody else, say that there will be more coming in unless you put the two seamen's amendments in, more coming in than you can possibly deport.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, then, you have noticed that these deportations are increasing, the number going out-being sent out-is increasing, and I have a letter here dated New York City, December 11, 1924, which I will read for the record.

(The letter referred to was thereupon read by the chairman, and it is as follows:)

NEW YORK CITY, December 11, 1924. DEAR SIR: My only way to earn a living is by going to sea. I always ship as a quartermaster or boatswain. Since I was wounded in France I can not go as an ordinary or able-bodied seaman. I can not climb rigging. I went to the Morgan Line shipping office, on Pier 48, North River, and asked for a boatswain or a quartermaster place and was turned down, along with three other American fellows. A German was put on board the steamship El Sol, and so was a quartermaster. I got a pass to go aboard that ship and saw the first mate. He told me he could get more work out of them kind. They both deserted a German ship here five weeks ago.

If an American goes to Germany he is beaten or locked up for looking cross

ways.

Can't something be done, please?

One German boatswain, two German sailors, one German quartermaster. PATRICK M. CAVANAUGH.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a complaint, and one that comes to the committee I presume he refers not so much to deserting sailors from other ships, but those that have left the ship. Is that so?

Mr. FURUSETH. Complaining about the men?

The CHAIRMAN. Take a ship at the port of New York. There will be in the port of New York enormous numbers of sailors who have left ships for the purpose of shipping foreign, and then foreign-born sailors; they have a right to ship foreign-

Mr. FURUSETH. In the coastwise trade?

The CHAIRMAN. This bill would be designed to help a man like that?

Mr. FURUSETH. If it really did what it says.

The CHAIRMAN. Does it not do it in the coastwise trade?

Mr. FURUSETH. I must say again that shipowners do not want the American if he can avoid it, if he can get the Spaniard or German or anybody else.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not answer me.

Mr. FURUSETH. I say this, if you give enough money to the immigration officials for the enforcement of deportation, no doubt they will go aboard of coastwise vessels and execute the law, and this will help this man.

The CHAIRMAN. We will have to get the law. This committee can not make any appropriations.

Mr. FURUSETH. I am getting hundreds of those letters like you put in evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose so. The point I want to make is this, and we might as well state it now. You have got two paragraphs in italic type that you are determined to have in this bill, and you will introduce them on the floor or in the Senate, or you will insist upon them in conference, and there is about five weeks left to handle any kind of a deportation bill. Have we got enough sailor matter in here to be worth while without these two provisions?

Mr. FURUSETH. I told the shipowners, and I told you frankly, that if these two provisions which will make this bill effective stand in the way of getting the bill passed, the organized seamen of America will not stand in the way of it, and when I said that I meant it. The CHAIRMAN. When are we going to find out?

Mr. FURUSETH. They come here. You have got hearings here. They come here and testify. Do you expect me and the seamen to sit here listening to what they say and not rebut it with the fact in our own way? There are two men here from New York with personal experience.

Mr. RAKER. You are the hardest worker I ever met.

Mr. FURUSETH. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. And you never quit, so when you say you will not stand in the way of it, you mean it?

Mr. FURUSETH. Yes, sir.

Mr. VAILE. He will not stand in the way, but he will insist on these provisions.

Mr. FURUSETH. No, no, no; I will not do that. When I say that I will not stand in the way I mean that.

Mr. VAILE. I know you mean that, but you will still work for these provisions, of course.

Mr. FURUSETH. You have got the provisions before you.

Let me say something to you gentlemen: You have got something in the bill of last year that I submitted to the Congressman who was on the committee 12 years ago, you base deportation or admission to the United States of citizenship. I gave that idea to the Congressman from San Jose 12 years ago. You are going to pass those things some day.

The CHAIRMAN. Probably not in a short session.

Mr. FURUSETH. You are going to pass them some day.

Now, the seaman has never done anything else but work. He is the last thing that God made. God only made him when he did not have material to make a real man. That is the way he is treated, not by the Congress of the United States. The seaman dies that others might live. We do not complain. We come and tell you the truth and say that if this thing will prevent your bill from passing we will quit for this session. I will leave that to you and others as to whether they will. If you call a meeting, if you call a hearing, of course I will come. If you call a hearing in the Senate committee and they come and protest, of course I will come. I can not sit down and let them give you the kind of information that they have been furnishing Congress for 120 years, when I have got real information to give you, and in all these years over and over again they nave been investigating to find out if my information was correct. Over and over again they have checked my statements and they have never been able to find that I have stated something as a fact that was not a fact.

Mr. RAKER. The chairman has called attention to the provisions of the bill, section 14, reading as follows:

An alien found employed on board a vessel engaged in coastwise trade of the United States without having been lawfully admitted to the United States may be deported.

That is the law now?

Mr. FURUSETH. That is the practice and the law now. It evidently must be the law, because they practice it.

Mr. RAKER. That is no new provision. It is a codification, but still there are thousands of men engaged in the coastwise trade subject to deportation and not deported, because they have not the money.

Mr. FURUSETH. I guess so; I can not see any other reason. I can not suspect them of shirking their duty. The only legitimate reason is they have not got the money.

There are two men here from New York, if you will put them on for a minute. They are both practical men, one a sailor and one a fireman. They have not been around here long enough to know how to take care of themselves. They could not talk to you as I do and others who come before your committee, and if you will permit them to take the stand, swear them or otherwise, and ask them any questions you desire, they will be glad to answer them.

STATEMENT OF MR. ERNEST MISSLAND, 70 SOUTH STREET, NEW YORK CITY

The CHAIRMAN. What is your name?

Mr. MISSLAND. Ernest Missland.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your address?

Mr. MISSLAND. Seventy South Street, New York City.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your business?

Mr. MISSLAND. My business is delegate of the Marine Firemen, Oilers, Water Tenders Union.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by "delegate"?

Mr. MISSLAND. Solicit dues, convert men to the idea of the International Union.

The CHAIRMAN. That is your entire business?

Mr. MISSLAND. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the statement you want to make? Mr. MISSLAND. The statement concerning the immigration_deportation bill. I have been employed in New York City as a delegate on and off since 1920. Sometimes I get a little discouraged and I take a trip to sea again, because it is very hard to convince men and fight the I. W. W. continuously.

Mr. VAILE. You have been at sea for how many years?

Mr. MISSLAND. I have been to sea since 1907.

Mr. VAILE. Up to what time?

Mr. MISSLAND. Up to 1920, mostly steady.

Mr. VAILE. All right; go head.

Mr. MISSLAND. I go on some of those ships and I see that some companies bring in a surplus of men, more than they carry when they are going out. I have seen that on American ships, too. I do not go on foreign ships very often.

Mr. VAILE. Why do you not?

Mr. MISSLAND. I am barred.

Mr. VAILE. The shipowners would not let you go?

Mr. MISSLAND. No. I can only go on United States Shipping Board ships, as I have pass for same. Private owners know me, some of them, and it is useless for me to try to make their ships, because I am not wanted there.

I also observed I. W. W.'s going onto these ships unmolested, the ships that I am barred from going on.

I have heard about the Italian-American Line-trading between Genoa and New York-taking a surplus of men signed on as sailors and firemen. I can not make a correct statement on that because I only heard it.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. I do not think it is fair to take that kind of testimony. The gentleman starts out with a story that he has information about American ships bringing in a surplus of men, more men than they need.

Mr. RAKER. He will designate the others before he gets through. He will convince you that he knows it before he gets through.

Mr. MISSLAND. I have seen many men that do come into the country unlawfully.

Mr. RAKER. After they land, you mean?

Mr. MISSLAND. A day or two after they tell me. It may be true and it may not be true, but it all comes to the thing that they did come over as seamen, and do not intend to go to sea. They go to a coal mine, go in business, or something like that.

Mr. RAKER. These men tell you that themselves?

Mr. MISSLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. Are you accepting this testimony in the record? Mr. RAKER. This is a seaman that he talked to personally. Can he get any better testimony?

The CHAIRMAN. This is not a court. It is to get an idea of the situation.

Mr. SABATH. Let us give the man a chance.

Mr. VAILE. We are not bound by technical rules of evidence in this case.

Mr. RAKER. Do they go in all kinds of business in New York? Mr. MISSLAND. They herd them just like cattle, in Greenwich Street; the shipping master gets a couple of dollars a head for the men to go to steel mills, and they never intend to go to sea any more; they are here to stay.

Mr. RAKER. Were those men of a class that would make good citizens?

Mr. MISSLAND. Well, that is something-some good ones and some bad ones.

Mr. RAKER. Lots of them, are there?

Mr. MISSLAND. Lots of them. A real sailor is usually honest; but there are bad ones among them.

Mr. RAKER. I am speaking about these fellows that never intend to go back.

Mr. MISSLAND. I do not see them very long. They disappear. Mr. WHITE. Is not the vital question before this committee that they are getting here and staying here in violation of the law? Mr. RAKER. You are right.

Mr. VAILE. This witness has seen these men.

Mr. MISSLAND. I will tell you my own experience, if you want to know.

I was born in Alsace-Lorraine. In 1893 I went to sea on German schooners in the North Sea. I managed to get a job as a coal passer; made a trip and made another trip. We had bad weather; some of the boys were new at the game, and they got sea sick, and I had to do the work of two or three men, and of course it was impossible. The engineer would say, "Can't you do it?" I tried to do it. It was very hot, 120°, 130°, 140°, 150° in some places, and it takes a man to stand it. I do not know if I can stand it unless I get into it easily again. There was a lot of mistreatment connected with some of the men, and once I hit back a superior officer. He was an engineer. There was a 60-mark fine staring me in the face. I deserted in New York, and a shipping master asked me if I wanted to go to sea again, and I told him yes, and I took a ship and went out again. I came here three different times. I made up my mind to immigrate the right way in 1917.

Mr. RAKER. Are you a citizen?

Mr. MISSLAND. I get my papers, if everything is all right, in July. Mr. RAKER. You applied for them some time ago?

Mr. MISSLAND. Yes; some time ago. I landed in Honolulu, a peculiar case; and I could have had my citizenship papers if I had wanted them. I could have had them two years ago.

The CHAIRMAN. No; you could not.

Mr. MISSLAND. I did not want to get them illegally.

Mr. RAKER. He could not get any citizenship papers until after the war except by special act.

Mr. MISSLAND. I did not know anybody here five years, because I traveled, traveled, traveled. In the meantime, when war broke out, they took me as a German; they took me off a Norwegian ship-the immigration authorities-held me for 26 days, and gave me a pass on the coast, and everything like that; but a wire came from Washington, telling me to discontinue sailing until the war is over. I had a bad experience in 1914 in Australia; that is where I made my