act and we can't stop them. I absolutely deny the figures that have been given here loosely as to the number of deserters who remain in the United States. I deny that there is any common practice on the part of the stemship lines of bringing in men for the purpose of having them desert."

Mr. CABLE. How many desertions did you have last year?

Mr. RAVENEL. I can not give you the figures now. We base our figures on common experience. The committee to-day has given the figure 38,000 as representing the number of seamen that deserted here last year.

Mr. RAKER. The Secretary of Labor says that is true.

Mr. RAVENEL. But he does not tell you the number that signed up and went out of the United States-the number of legitimate

seamen.

Mr. VAILE. Before we go too far into this matter please explain to us why it would be an unconscionable hardship to take out the same number of men that you bring in, when you recognize the necessity of recruiting for one reason. Sometimes you have to recruit up to the number of men required by law?

Mr. RAVENEL. We have the number required to work in the fireroom coming over, say, and one or two of those men desert. We know we can not get the ship back without putting on additional men. In that case we are hung up and we know it. Again, we may have, say, 500 men in the stewards' department on a first-class liner, because we are trying to give the best service on the sea, and 5 men in the stewards' department desert. Five men out of 500 men is not a serious thing, is it?

Mr. VAILE. I should not think so.

Mr. RAVENEL. Yet, under this proposed law we would be required to delay our sailing until 5 or 20 men, or whatever number we might be short, were gathered in.

Mr. VAILE. There is a minimum number even in the steward's department?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes. It is simply in accordance with the number of passengers carried. I do not know exactly what it is. It is so much under what we require that we could not look after the passengers with it.

Mr. VAILE. Let us go back to the engineering department. Suppose you bring in the number of men that are, in your judgment, required instead of bringing in the minimum number required by law. Why is it a great hardship to take back the same number that you bring in?

Mr. RAVENEL. On account of the delays in getting that steamer away. As you know, ships sail on schedule time. They should sail exactly as a railroad train moves. They carry a great deal of commerce and valuable commerce, both people and commodities. It is a great hardship for us to hold up a sailing from two to eight hours.

Mr. VAILE. Is it a greater hardship than to bring the crew up to the minimum required by law?

Mr. RAVENEL. If you are under the minimum required by law you just stop. You tie up. Ships have been delayed from 5 to 10 hours

25944-25-SER 2-B-2

in New York City. Let me tell you another thing-this thing of making up crews

Mr. RAKER. Let me interrupt you right there. Tell the committee how many holdups of this kind you have had in the last two years. Mr. RAVENEL. Practically none. Two years ago we had some very serious strikes.

Mr. RAKER. But in the last two years there have been no holdups and your record will show you have had none?

make

Mr. RAVENEL. Practically so. The reason is that we go out and up the men if we can and if we do not need them we sail short. Mr. MOREYNOLDS. As a rule you carry more men than are necessary?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes, sir; many more.

Mr. McREYNOLDS. For a possible emergency?

Mr. RAVENEL. Not only for an emergency, but for the rendition of an excellent service.

Mr. RAKER. Why do you carry more than a minimum number when coming from a foreign country to the United States?

Mr. RAVENEL. The board of trade or the steamship inspection service think we can get along with fewer men than we think we

can.

Mr. RAKER. There is a ship coming from France, or England, or Germany, or Italy and the minimum crew is, say, 150 menMr. RAVENEL. Divided up among the various departments. Mr. RAKER. There are 50 in the steward's department. Mr. RAVENEL. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. Why carry 80 men in the steward's department when 50 men only are necessary? And suppose that you should need 50 in the engineering department and you bring 80?

Mr. RAVENEL. Because we want the vessel to steam.

Mr. RAKER. Is the minimum crew required by law, in your judgment, too low?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes; I think it is for our big ships. Some other people might have different ideas.

Mr. McREYNOLDS. Is it fixed at what they think is an absolute necessity?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. Suppose you are required to have 100 men and you bring in 125 men? Why do you put on the extra 25 men?

Mr. RAVENEL. To promote efficiency in operation.

Mr. SABATH. During certain seasons of the year the travel from abroad to the United States is invariably much heavier than it is at other seasons and consequently you need larger crews, especially in the stewards' department?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes.

Mr. SABATH. But when you leave the United States and only about 50 per cent of your capacity for passengers is utilized you need only 50 per cent of the help in the stewards' department?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes.

Mr. SABATH. You do not care whether you leave here with 150, 170, or 200 stewards, it will not interfere with the sailing?

Mr. RAVENEL. We carry practically the same crew. We would take the same number on the next trip. We have stewards sailing on our line who have been there for 15 or 20 years.

Mr. SABATH. We mean the general help in the stewards' department.

Mr. RAVENEL. We sign them for the round trip and pay the regular wage and we expect them to complete the voyage.

Mr. RAKER. You are talking about the American vessels now? Mr. RAVENEL. I am speaking for my company now.

Mr. RAKER. But you do not speak in that language about the foreign ships, do you?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. They are not in the same situation?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes; the regular foreign ships are the same.

Mr. RAKER. If you have a thousand passengers coming to the United States and you need 500 men in the stewards' department and deck hands, and you get back with 500 passengers, you should need only half as many as you brought over. Are you still anxious to get the full 500 to go back with you?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes; we never want desertions at the port of New York or any other port. You do not believe me, but it is true. The American Steamship Owners' Association feel exactly the same way about it.'

Mr. HOLADAY. Coming back to the case of the Majestic. Suppose she enters New York with a maximum load

Mr. RAVENEL. Of passengers?

Mr. HOLADAY. Yes; and she has a crew of 1,100. When she leaves New York we will say she has a load to only 75 per cent of her capacity. Would you in the ordinary course of business take out the crew of 1,100 men?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes; that is the regular course of business. I am not for a minute claiming that we do not have a difference of, say, 5 or 6 men one way or the other, but so far as any considerable number is concerned it does not exist.

Mr. HOLADAY. The common practice is to return with the same number in the crew irrespective of passengers carried?

Mr. RAVENEL. During those particular seasons. In the winter months when we have the normal traffic we have a smaller crew, but when in the spring travel starts flowing from Europe we start from Southampton with sufficient employees in the stewards' department with 500 passengers to take care of the 1,000 passengers that get on at New York and go abroad. That is our practice.

Mr. RAKER. I take it from what you have said that the foreign steamship companies, as well as the American steamship companies, are in favor of having bona fide seamen that will make trip after trip, because the longest distance between ports is only about two weeks and under present conditions the seamen may go to their homes in the United States every three weeks or a month. You want men that will stay with you-good, competent men?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. Tell the committee whether, if the law was so enacted and so enforced that when you found that this extra number-found mala fide seamen who were not engaging in the business and who got aboard only to come to the United States-it would be to the advantage of the steamship companies to take off these mala fide seamen and not reengage them, knowing that they were not real seamen ?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. It would be to the advantage of steamship company? Mr. RAVENEL. Yes. Take those men that are inspected and rejected and move them to Ellis Island. Take them off the ship.

I

Mr. RAKER. Is there any other thing that would stop this? want to get this before you: You will admit that a lot of men sign up in foreign countries on foreign vessels, and possibly on American vessels who are not seamen, but who are farmers, lumber jacks, hotel men, and ordinary laborers, and sign up as seamen simply to come here and desert?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes; but not so many as you are led to believe. Mr. RAKER. What we can do to prevent that class of people from coming to the United States we ought to do?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. You will admit that they will not make good citizens? Mr. RAVENEL. I think they will make good citizens, good farmers, and good laborers.

Mr. RAKER. The rough people who come over here as seamen?

Mr. RAVENEL. I do not know whom you mean. If there are a lot of good farmers, mechanics, and laborers among them, they would make good, I believe. It does not make any difference, because this section is not going to stop it.

Mr. RAKER. Will the vessel not investigate the man before he is put on the crew list to know that he is a real seamen rather than a hotel flunky?

Mr. RAVENEL. The investigation is being made now as perfectly as you can run any large business. Take, for instance, the drivers of taxicabs. Perhaps many of them should not be in that business, but you do not want to hang the man who allows them to drive his car. I do not understand what possible point there is for us to employ an inefficient hotel flunky when there is an efficient seaman available.

Mr. SABATH. At the present time we have a law which permits only a certain number of people to legally enter the United States. It has been repeatedly charged that between 30,000 and 35,000 aliens come to the United States as seamen or as men engaged as seamen by the different steamship companies, some in the stewards' division and some in other divisions, who are engaged solely for the purpose of entering the United States illegally. They are engaged and come across for the sole purpose of entering the United States after deserting the vessel that brought them. That is what we are trying to stop. That is the aim of Mr. Raker's amendments-to prevent desertions and to prevent these companies from making it their business to bring people here deliberately, in many instances in violation of law, and unloading them upon us.

Mr. RAVENEL. I will tell you what to do. Go aboard that ship and if you find that these men are not bona fide seamen take them to Ellis Island and deport them. We have no objection to that.

Mr. VAILE. I think you would develop some complaints between immigration authorities and your officers who would claim the applicants were bona fide seamen.

Mr. RAVENEL. That is a question, whether the immigration authorities would deal with the thing as a practical proposition. The

thing we are interested in is the provision relative to the taking out the same number of people brought in.

Mr. RAKER. You are desirous of taking back as many of the crew as you brought in. Do you think all have the same desire?

Mr. RAVENEL. We are desirous of taking back the crew we bring in. We are desirous of keeping our people on the ship. All of the regular lines feel likewise.

Mr. RAKER. You are very desirous of taking back all who have signed on the crew list?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. That means all the stewards, deck hands, and firemen ? Mr. RAVENEL. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. If you bring in a thousand you want to take out a thousand?

Mr. RAVENEL. Not "a thousand" but "the thousand." We want to take back the thousand we brought in.

Mr. RAKER. If you have a thousand signed on the crew list you are anxious to take that same thousand back?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. And you think it ought to be done?

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes, sir; you can make it as tight as you want to stop desertions.

Mr. RAKER. That being the case, how are you prevented from not taking that thousand back?

Mr. RAVENEL. Under the authority of the United States statutes they come ashore and desert.

Mr. RAKER. What, according to your experience, is the cause of desertions?

Mr. RAVENEL. Economic conditions are better in the United States than they are abroad. There are a thousand and one things that enter into desertions. The average seaman is a man who wants to move around. He wants to go ashore, remain there awhile, and then go out on another ship. I do not believe that the 36,000 seamen who deserted last year remained in the United States. I do not believe that more than one-fourth or one-fifth of that number remained in the United States. Mr. Raker, on page 45, Serial I-B of these hearings, you said to Commissioner Curran that under the present law his inspectors could go aboard the ships and spot the fellows who are not legitimate seamen, have them detained and taken to Ellis Island at the expense of the steamship company. You told Mr. Curran that he had the law and the authority and all they needed was the money. I agree with you. You do not have to go further.

Mr. RAKER. We want you to tell us why so many of these fellows come over here intending to desert before they start. They are employed at a cheap wage before they start.

Mr. RAVENEL. Not on a regular line. There may be an exception or two. This line that is always being mentioned as bringing in 500 as a crew when only 350 are required. The immigration authorities know that 350 only are necessary. They should go aboard the ship and detain the excess. It is a fraud.

Mr. RAKER. And you want to help us stop that?
Mr. RAVENEL. Yes.