unemployment quickly, and prepare a comprehensive program of public works, also-the two things. They did not work; they could not work together. It was impossible to prepare a comprehensive plan and also to put people to work quickly. It was 18 months, with all that money, before we had 100,000 men engaged on the sites, because there were no plans ready. All we had were idle fancies and pretty pictures, and all those details I gave you a while ago of the things that have to be done before you can get out and put a spade in the ground were not done. For that reason here were idle people; no jobs. Something had to be done about it. They wanted work. So P. W. A. was created and there was not anything better to do. A lot of it, the most of it, was raking leaves, but it did give people a liveli· hood and a means to support their families for a time.

Mr. GIBSON. And is it not clearly as the result of lack of planning at the proper time that you had this weed cutting and leaf råking? General FLEMING. Absolutely; that is right.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what we are trying to avoid now.

Mr. GIBSON. That is right.

General FLEMING. W. P. A. in the first part of its career was very much the same sort of thing. It was not until over a period of years, when it was possible to prepare plans in advance, that they began erecting useful structures and you find, at the end of its career, that they got some fine monuments over this country of things done by W. P. A.

And I think if we are not in shape in this country to take care of our own people that our voice in world affairs, in which we would like to have some weight, won't have a great deal of weight.

I have talked here about construction, but we have had in the Federal Works Agency under W. P. A. and also under the Lanham Act certain service programs. I think your committee should give some consideration to what is to be done in that line. There are white-collar workers out of jobs that cannot carry a hod or lay bricks, and you are going to have to provide them with jobs and you cannot provide them just in the construction industry. There have to be some other types of projects.

I think Congress should act soon, because we do not know how long this war is going to continue, or when it is going to end. The way it is going in Europe, it looks like we would get a termination there sooner than in the Pacific. If so, that will give us a certain transition period which we have to meet first. As that may come at any time, we cannot wait for the setting of the "rising sun" or the straightening of the "crooked cross" before we begin to make our plans. I think we ought to do it now. Just the other day, on Armistice Day, I read in the Washington Post an article by Barnet Nover on the picture of the Germans at the end of the war, and he ended up with this final paragraph:

The various more or less isolated campaigns fought by the Allies up to now are now merging into one campaign. * At best, the Third Reich has another year before its course is run; its doom is likely to be sounded long before the next anniversary of the armistice of 1918. And when the collapse comes, it will come not gradually, like the melting of snow, but suddenly like an avalanche. For this, too, we must be prepared.

And I would like to emphasize that last sentence-"For this, too, we must be prepared."

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions to be asked of General Fleming? If not, General, we are very glad indeed to have this preliminary statement for the beginning of these hearings. We are going to meet next week on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, and are going to hear some very eminent people in their respective lines of work.

(The committee thereupon adjourned until Tuesday, November 30, 1943, at 10 a. m.)

[NOTE: The next meeting was held on December 1; the meeting announced for November was not held.]

POST-WAR PLANNING

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 1, 1943

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC BUILDINGS AND GROUNDS,

Washington, D. C.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 a. m., in room 1324, New House Office Building, Hon. Fritz G. Lanham (chairman) presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to say for the benefit of those who honor us by attending this meeting that the Committee on Public Buildings and Grounds of the House of Representatives is holding a series of hearings in order to get the facts from the various lines of industry, from the States, and from the municipalities, in order that we may have information on which a bill may be predicated enunciating some proper policy of the Federal Government and proper cooperation with the States and municipalities and industry in the matter of a post-war planning program.

We think by getting the facts and then drawing a bill that we can promote economy, that we can obviate a long period of idleness when this war is over, and that we can enable through some Federal policy various States and municipalities and various branches of industry to know what they can properly and feasibly plan in advance on postwar employment, construction, and operation.

We began the hearings last week and had the testimony of Major General Fleming, Administrator of the Federal Works Agency. The hearings will be rather voluminous and extensive, and we are going to hear from very eminent people and it is our purpose to get all the information we can from various lines of industry and from the States and municipalities in order to arrive at some proper conclusion.

We feel that to introduce a bill at this time would be a hit-or-miss proposition, and accordingly we have no bill before us, but are trying to get the facts in order that we may formulate some bill and suggest some policy that will give us much more efficient operation from the standpoint of the post-war program than we had following World War No. 1.

We are honored this morning to have with us the president of the Chamber of Commerce of the United States, Mr. Eric A. Johnston, and we will be very glad indeed to hear from you at this time, Mr. Johnston.

STATEMENT OF ERIC A. JOHNSTON, PRESIDENT, CHAMBER OF COMMERCE OF THE UNITED STATES, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen:

May I first congratulate you on the very excellent and appropriate statement you made at the beginning.

As you know, the United States Chamber of Commerce represents over 1,400 chambers of commerce throughout the United States. Most of them have construction members.

In addition to that, there are over 300 trade associations that belong to the United States Chamber of Commerce, and many of these are in the construction field or allied industries-for instance, banking, finance, insurance and the supplying and manufacturing of materials, all of which are a part of the construction field.

So, I think it is very desirable, and I am glad, Mr. Chairman, that you are going to call the leaders of industry before the committee and get their views.

So far as I am concerned I want to discuss with you five things which we think are needed to formulate a policy.

First, that the Congress look to the construction industry to eliminate its own peaks and valleys as far as possible, and in that way to make its contribution to providing useful employment but not to expect that industry to stabilize our whole economy, because first of all the construction industry cannot provide all the employment. It can provide at best from 10 to 15 percent of the total employment of the country. We very definitely feel that you should make it clear to the private construction industry that they are to assume their share of the burden after the war but only their proper economic share.

Second, it seems to me that Congress should make it perfectly clear that the States, counties and cities are going to have to do their own local public works. They have too frequently relied upon the Federal Government for their local projects, when they are in good financial position, and even have a surplus with which to provide them.

I have a letter from the president of one of our New Jersey chambers of commerce, and I would like to read just part of it:

Our committee for coordinating and developing post-war plans is running into the question of financing public works developments after the war. The thought expressed by the politically minded is that there will be Federal funds availablewhy not get our share.

I am writing you to get your thoughts in regard to the localizing of necessary financing, and to find out what is being done to limit Federal extravagance in that respect after the war.

If large amounts of money are going to be made available for the asking, our city and county want to have their plea in first, but it is my hope that something is being done to persuade the Government to finance only proper governmental projects.

I think if we run to Government, the Government will run us, and consequently we must stand on our two hind legs.

Indications are that the States, counties, and municipalities are in better financial condition than they have been in a decade. For instance, there are only 10 out of the 566 cities in New Jersey which are not on a current basis. Most cities are on a current basis and in some cases even have a surplus. In my travels throughout the United States, it is frequently asked, Will not the Federal Government have a huge public works plan after the war?

Certainly it is going to stifle industry and local planning if the feeling is abroad throughout the land that the federal government is going to finance all our local public works.

Mr. McGREGOR. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McGregor.

Mr. McGREGOR. Is that the opinion of your organization?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, it is.

The CHAIRMAN. I may say for your encouragement that reflects absolutely the opinion of the committee.

Mr. JOHNSTON. I do not think we can build a good foundation for democracy with a tin cup in our hand.

The CHAIRMAN. I agree with you.

Mr. OUTLAND. Is it your opinion private industry will be able to take up the slack when the war is over?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; for 2 to 7 or 8 years.

Mr. OUTLAND. Following that question up, do you think it would be possible to have better employment?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I do.

The third thing is, I think the Federal Government should be required to correlate its public-works expenditures through a suitable agency to be established. This will enable the people of the country to know with certainty what the Federal Government is going to do, and at the same time it should eliminate a great deal of waste and extravagance.

The fourth point is, the Federal Government should make it known that Federal construction is going to be done by the contract method and not by day labor, and

The fifth is that the Federal Government should let it be known that they are not going to compete with private industry in the construction field. That is important in order to encourage private home builders to go forward now with the preparation of their plans for building just as soon as the materials and labor are available.

Now, I recognize full well, and all of us do, that the Federal Government has a construction program of its own which it must carry out. Necessarily early formulation of plans should be carried forward now, such as requirements for highway projects, navy yards, arsenals, and so forth.

There should be no competition with private industry in any of those fields. Obviously there is a great deal of work that has to be done by the Federal Government in those fields, but I trust the Federal Government will let it be known that it will confine its activities to strictly Government fields.

Also I want to stress again that total construction activity can represent only from 10 to 15 percent of total employment, and that public works-city, county, State and Federal-is the smaller part of total construction. In the late thirties it amounted to only two-fifths of the entire construction and in the late twenties to one-third or less of the entire construction. So again I want to repeat that the larger share of construction has been done in the past by private industry, and it will be done again in the future. That does not mean the Federal Government and the States and communities should not plan their own blueprints now.

I believe the program I have suggested will result in the greatest good. The construction and civic development committee of the United States Chamber of Commerce most highly endorses it. Our only suggestions would be

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Do you not think, Mr. Johnston we are following the proper procedure in not confining our hearings to any bill but rather endeavoring to get the facts upon which we can. predicate some proper policy?

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