One, legislative recognition, which is very important, and a firm base for more positive executive action.

Two, emphasis, coherence, and long-range stability which would encourage scientific oceanography to grow in proportion to the need. Three, a comprehensive program of ocean technology and engineering, embracing exploitation and development of the capability to do useful work in the ocean, particularly in the nonmilitary area. This would in turn provide guidance and encouragement to industry and the tangible evidence of Government support would stimulate increased industrial participation.

Four, an essential step toward a strong posture for the conflicts which will result from increasing exploitation of the oceans by many

nations.

Finally, a basis for long-range usage planning for the Great Lakes and the oceans contiguous to our own shores, to the end that special interests or thoughtless exploitation will not damage the general welfare of U.S. citizens.

I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to express my opinions.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Captain. I think the last part of your statement sets forth almost in better terms than the bill itself what we are trying to do or are hopeful of doing in this particular instance. It seems to me from your past experience in this field that if we don't go ahead with this, we will start to lag behind and our comprehensive goals will become less defined as we move along, so that we will have to do this just as we did in space.

This is the same problem that confronted us and particularly with relation to the space program. I was a member of the first committee when the space program was started. It was sort of a loose, jointed thing and every department was moving toward what we thought were objectives but nothing you could grab and cling to.

We appreciate your statement and particularly the emphasis that we are not doing as much as we should to encourage industry participation in the oceanographic field. This is paramount because if we proceed and accomplish the oceanographic program that I think is necessary for this Nation, we must have the partnership of industry. Otherwise we won't make it. Thank you very much.

Captain ARNOLD. May I say one additional thing pertinent to the remark you just made, sir. I believe that it is quite clear that the national space program has benefited greatly from having the specific goal of going to the moon by 1970. This has focused their efforts, has sharpened their attention to the problems and has given both industry and the whole country a long-range comprehensive picture of what is going on.

The CHAIRMAN. It has pulled together what we are trying to do. Captain ARNOLD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Because even if the moon didn't exist, we would still want to be doing 80 to 90 percent of the things that we are going to do on our way there, but it pulled it together. It dramatized it too in the minds of the American people.

Captain ARNOLD. If we had such a program in oceanography, I think it would be helpful, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Captain.

(The prepared statement of Capt. Henry A. Arnold, U.S. Navy (retired), appears in the appendix.)

The CHAIRMAN. Next is Admiral Knoll, Oceanographer of the Navy and Commander, U.S. Naval Oceanographic Office. We will be glad to hear from you.

STATEMENT OF REAR ADM. DENYS W. KNOLL, U.S. NAVY, OCEANOGRAPHER OF THE NAVY AND COMMANDER, U.S. NAVAL OCEANOGRAPHIC OFFICE

Admiral KNOLL. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, it is an pleasure to be here and discuss the Navy's program in oceanography-a program which is a major part of our national oceanographic program.

Last month, the third edition of "Navy's 10-Year Program in Oceanography" (TENOC) was approved and issued. We will be very happy to make a copy available to you. It is classified confidential, but we will take steps to make it available.

The CHAIRMAN. We will appreciate that.

Admiral KNOLL. TENOC is the means by which Navy keeps in step with increasing knowledge of the oceans, and uses this knowledge to enhance our military defense readiness through oceanographic applications. It includes the many changing defense requirements, and present plans for meeting them through research, development, surveys, instrumentation, ship construction, and training.

Broadly speaking, the Chief of Naval Research, under the Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Research and Development, sponsors Navy oceanographic research by contracts with universities and oceanographic institutions. The Chiefs of the technical bureaus under the Chief of Naval Material sponsor exploratory development and applicaations programs at their laboratories. The Commander of the Naval Oceanographic Office is responsible for the Navy's oceanographic survey programs, the analyses and presentation of data, and the development of an ocean forecasting system.

Since 1961, the Navy effort in oceanography has more than doubled. For security reasons, only the unclassified part of this total effort is included in the national oceanographic program. For fiscal year 1966, Navy has requested a total of $130 million, of which about $67 million is included in the unclassified national program. These funds will be balanced among participants in the Navy as follows: 29 percent to the Office of Naval Research, 34 percent to the Naval Oceanographic Office, 37 percent to the Bureau of Ships, 0.8 percent to the Bureau of Naval Weapons, and 1 percent to the Bureau of Yards and Docks.

Although buoys, aircraft, and deep-diving vehicles are soon to enter the oceanographic picture for the collection of observations in increasing numbers, the Navy will have to depend largely on ships to support the bulk of its oceanographic data collection program for many years. It now has 24 research and survey ships in operation, under construction, or authorized, and in addition has provided 14 ships to institutions and universities for use in connection with Navy research programs. In the fiscal year 1966 program, two research ships for use by Scripps and Woods Hole Institutions, and a large coastal survey

ship are being requested. Many of the present old, obsolescent group of ships will be eventually replaced by new, specially designed ships.

These requests for new ships are amply supported by urgent defense requirements, particularly in submarine and antisubmarine warfare. A recent study has shown that by 1969, even allowing for the addition of new oceanographic research and survey ships, there will still remain a deficiency of 9 ship-years for research, and almost 30 ship-years for

surveys.

Many of Navy's surveys are not included within the framework of the national oceanographic program, since they are classified. These surveys fall into several categories. Inshore surveys are conducted in various areas to support mine warfare operations. Coastal and open ocean surveys are performed in strategic areas to meet requirements of our operating forces for amphibious operations, submarine operations, strike warfare, and general fleet navigation. Various project surveys are conducted to gather the data needed for the development, installation, and operations of undersea systems. Some recent examples are the surveys required for the Underwater Test and Evaluation Center in the Bahamas; the Pacific Missile Range; for submarine test areas; and for other classified operations. It is important to note that Navy surveys, although conducted to meet specific, high-priority defense requirements, have two very beneficial byproducts. First, they help to meet the Navy's obligation to provide navigational charts for our merchant marine. Second, they contribute general information on the world's oceans which is of value to a wide variety of users.

Recent changes have been made in the Navy's educational program in oceanography. A new course has been established at the naval postgraduate school at Monterey, Calif. The annual input of officer students to the postgraduate program in oceanography will be increased from 6 in 1964 to 24 in 1965. Twelve of these students will attend the naval postgraduate school course, and the remaining 12 will enter major graduate schools in universities. In addition, an introductory course in oceanography has been established for all midshipmen at the U.S. Naval Academy, during their first year.

It

The Navy oceanographic program is a broad and comprehensive one, flexible to meet our changing defense needs in ocean areas. is providing the support needed for effective utilization of our most sophisticated weapons systems and advanced operational concepts, and in addition is giving the research base on which future advances can be built.

Fully as important as these defense achievements, however, are the contributions which the Navy program makes to other fields of interest. This is not accidental, but deliberately planned so that maximum benefits will be achieved. Survey and research ship cruises are planned up to 2 years in advance, so that other laboratories can participate and cooperate. The data from Navy surveys is put into the National Oceanographic Data Center for general use; even in the case of classified projects, most of it is eventually made available. Navy-sponsored research programs are designed to solve not only Navy problems, but to contribute to those in related areas.

Through this planned program of cooperation, the Navy's oceanographic effort contributes heavily to such important programs as

commercial and sports fisheries; exploitation of mineral resources on the Continental Shelf and in the deep seas; improved design and operation of our merchant fleet; weather forecasting; commercial exploitation of the polar regions; coastal and harbor engineering; sanitation and pollution control; and the use of coasts and oceans for recreation. The Navy has an implicit obligation to support to the fullest these very important and closely allied fields of endeavor, while not losing sight of its primary obligations in national defense. The Navy's planned program in oceanography will provide support for both fields, and insure that maximum tangible results are obtained for every dollar spent in the marine sciences.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this privilege. I am ready to answer questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Admiral, the Navy does this work in these fields based upon Defense Department research and development arriving at what they think is a certain project that you would like to find out this about or that about. Is that the way it works or do you have just a general scientific exploration, in some cases, of the ocean to find out general information?

Admiral KNOLL. Our projects today, Mr. Chairman, are addressed to specific requirements relating to weapons systems or the use of the systems or development of techniques and there is practically nothing in our program that we have any money for just general investigations. These stem from military requirements normally from the operating command or the type commander or Bureau of Ships or Weapons or needing information for the future effectiveness of these weapons. The CHAIRMAN. But when you embark upon a specified project, you have a great spin-off, do you not, in the whole field of oceanography that is available to industry or to fisheries?

Admiral KNOLL. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. On these expeditions, do you have just purely naval people or do you contract or both?

Admiral KNOLL. Until recently, they were either Navy people or on MSTS-manned ships. We very recently contracted with industry to do some surveying for us because we did not have enough platforms in-house to do the job. This has a very promising future. We are very much encouraged by it because it gives us the opportunity to work with industry and industry is on the threshold of picking up this information to identify some of the phenomena that may not come to our attention for military reasons. So it will serve industry and we will all benefit as a result of being associated in the sea, getting our feet wet and going on the high seas and learning new information. The CHAIRMAN. You are also embarking, as I understand it, on a broader educational program, having a new course of oceanography at the Naval Academy, but aren't you sending some of our naval officers to different institutions to learn more about different fields that comprise oceanography?

Admiral KNOLL. That is correct, Mr. Chairman. As I mentioned, we will have 12 more people going this year to civilian institutions, in addition to those in our Navy institutions and this will give us again a chance to affiliate with educational levels and cross-fertilize interests and develop what we should be doing together.

The CHAIRMAN. Supposing Woods Hole or Scripps were embarking upon a project of survey or research, say, in the Indian Ocean, an expedition, and it might be financed by the National Science Foundation. Do they invite you to send along some of your people for what they might get out of it, too? Is that possible?

Admiral KNOLL. That is very possible, but normally our people are all committed to our projects and we benefit whether we send them along or not. We are kept up to date on what they are finding out and this exchange of classified data is very successful within the Government and all of our institutions and with industry as well, except in terms of oil. There, proprietary interest is retained although we have the benefit of this information for Navy use.

The CHAIRMAN. But your people are pretty busy right now with the things you are directed to do, are they not?

Admiral KNOLL. That is correct. We are very busy on meeting requirements for operational use today.

The CHAIRMAN. Are we having any success in our underwater communication?

Admiral KNOLL. The communication problem is one of those that is new for marine physical survey and it will collect information, our survey of the ocean in specific areas, because underwater communication is essentially the transmission of acoustical energy. Therefore, if we know the various layers, chemical layers, biological layers, or thermal layers that affect this acoustical transmission and how it is affected seasonally or how it is affected in various geographical areas because it relates to our antisubmarine warfare problem, we will also have new levels of information and how to apply it for other types of communications.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you say that in the charting of the seas of the world, that we are ahead or behind any other country such as Russia or England or other places?

Admiral KNOLL. If you are talking about charting, per se, which is essentially hydrographic, there is essentially a very satisfactory and complete interchange of that hydrographic information in terms of straight producing of charts. Unfortunately, with the new techniques being developed and new techniques that are going to be needed for oceanographic work and understanding of the environment, whether it is for mineral resources or whether it is for oil, the type of fathometers and electronic devices for actually surveying the bottom is a whole new type of technology that will produce new types of accuracy in the charts that we have never seen before.

Our charts will then be obsolete based on present techniques. This is a great promise that we need for all kinds of work in the ocean. There is a type of fathometer that does in fact show the bottom and you don't need a sounding every 200 yards or every couple of miles and take your chances in between. There are a lot more crevices, a lot more indication of currents and undulations on the bottom than our present charts show, and when we are finally able to reproduce the bottom in its true topography, we will have a tool that will really give us something that will allow us to use the ocean intelligently. This we do not have and this is one of the orders of high priority for the future because ultimately, if we can survey the bottom and reproduce the topography that is down there, we will have a facility