Mrs. BOLTON. I still feel there is grave danger of the possibility of making U. N. R. R. A. a political instrument, Mr. Secretary. I think there is involved the whole foreign policy of this country, and I do not know whether we are going to get behind the thing that the President and Mr. Churchill agreed to in the middle Atlantic, self-determination of nations, or whether we are going to build tools that will make a travesty of that.

Mr. ACHESON. I think we all agree most enthusiastically that we do not wish to do the things you fear, Mrs. Bolton, and I think we have gone as far as we can.

Mrs. BOLTON. Of course, let me make myself clear that I am enthusiastically for the United Nations control of relief, and my whole purpose in asking any questions at all is to clarify it as much as possible. I know certain questions are going to be asked on the floor, and a great many of the same questions are going to be asked by our people, and together I would like to work out with you and the State Department the answers or the possibilities of the next set of suggestions to make it impossible to have any of these detrimental factors. That is my only purpose.

Mr. ACHESON. It is impossible in this world to ever make completely impossible the doing of wrong things.

Mrs. BOLTON. Of course, there are going to be mistakes.

Mr. ACHESON. If we should attempt here to go to the extreme end of perfectionism we might have an ideal relief administration, and practically no people to relieve, because they would be dead before we got to relieve them.

As I said at the beginning of this testimony, the critical period is the period following liberation.

Mrs. BOLTON. Yes.

Mr. ACHESON. It will be one where the difficulties will be most acute. If this organization acts quickly then I believe that the whole relief period may be very short, and that we may start the liberated areas of Europe and Asia off toward rebuilding themselves without much help.

Mrs. BOLTON. Thank you very much for that.

Mr. ACHESON. If we delay or bungle too much for the fears we have then I believe the possibility of disorganization and chaos is very great. Mr. EATON. Would the lady yield?

Mrs. BOLTON. Yes; I yield.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor Eaton.

Mr. EATON. I had the misfortune to be a little late and 1 missed your original question. Am I to understand just as the W. P. A. debauched the American electorate so they voted wrong you are afraid U. N. R. R. A. extended into countries like France will debauch those electorate so they may not vote right.

Mrs. BOLTON. I think we should be exceedingly certain, Mr. Eaton, that it is not possible for any government to use these relief supplies to put itself back in power.

Mr. EATON. At the pleasure of the American Government?

Mrs. BOLTON. Just that.

Mr. EATON. No.

Mrs. BOLTON. What I am anxious to see us do is to examine into every possible little nook where there could be trouble. It is so much

easier to secure it in the beginning than it is later, and in reply to your statement, Mr. Secretary, that it is very necessary that relief go forward as quickly as possible in order to avert possible chaos; I am quite in agreement with you there. But if we give relief in such a manner as to destroy the very thing that this is all about, which is freedom of countries, the right of the people to make their own mistakes, it would be just as unfortunate, to my way of thinking, and it is just that I hope we will be very careful that we do not get back with that kind of thing.

And to that end I have been unable to find certain provisions that would appear necessary. I regret that I have not had time to go through all of the resolutions. Can you tell me if provision is made at any point for the moment when the present member governments, such of them as are governments in exile, would be superseded by government set up by the people of the now occupied countries. What will bridge the gap for U. N. R. R. A.? What happens to it if the signatory governments cease to function? Somehow, one wishes they might have been called "temporary governments" or something of that kind.

That just gives my sense of what it is all about. But what is going to protect relief during the period of change from the governmentin-exile type to something the people may prefer?

Mr. ACHESON. That again, as I said, is a question in the first instance that has to be decided in some other place. If a government disappears it obviously disappears and a new government takes its place. If there is a question between two governments the various representatives on the council will be instructed by their own governments as to what position they take.

But say that you come in discussing membership in an organization with governments all of which are recognized in good standing. You say we are now going to take up the matter of dealing with the possibility of their successors. That is not the way to get the organization off to a good start.

Mrs. BOLTON. Then it is the policy of the department, of the Americans, of our representatives in it to have the supplies go into these countries unmarked and no guarantee given that they are not misused or misunderstood.

Mr. ACHESON. I think that is almost the exact opposite of what I said a moment ago. That is not the policy.

Mrs. BOLTON. You did not quite cover it, and I overdo it perhaps, but I am doing it purposely.

The CHAIRMAN. May the Chair ask a question, Mrs. Bolton?
Mrs. BOLTON. By all means.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Secretary, regarding Mrs. Bolton's reference to France, the French, I understand, are to pay for these goods before they are delivered, or at some time the French are supposed to pay for them, is that right?

Mr. ACHESON. That is the statement made by the French representative.

The CHAIRMAN. If whatever government or whatever committee is in France at the time buys these goods and we deliver them to them do you not think it is up to the committee or the government of France at that time to say how we are going to deliver them and how

they are going to be marked? She pays for them and they are her own goods.

Mr. ACHESON. Yes; that is what I was going to try to bring out. So far as possible what we have done is reserve this fund for those who cannot get along without it, and have every government that can possibly do so pay for the imports which it gets.

There are also provisions, which we will come to in the resolutions, by which even a government which has no foreign exchange must bear all expenses of the government in its own country with its own currency. So that we have gone very far in not undertaking to carry the whole burden of relief or rehabilitation in any of these areas. We must, therefore, rely to a very great extent upon the local authority, and it is not possible at that point to say to the local authority, "You must do all these things, bear all these things, pay all these expenses, and we will come into your territory and administer the distribution of these goods." That would not work.

So far as the policy is concerned, it is not, as you thought, Mrs. Bolton, that the American representatives are not in favor of having goods marked. We have a resolution here that their goods shall be marked, so far as practicable. Many cannot be marked, and some can be, and will be marked. It is not our policy that there shall be no supervision of distribution. It is our policy that there shall be strict supervision of the distribution of relief goods. One of the resolutions, the last one, in regard to relief distribution policies appears on page 13 of part II.

The CHAIRMAN. Page 13, part II.

U. N. R. R. A. CONTROL OVER DISTRIBUTION

Mr. ACHESON. It is on page 13.

The first eight resolutions, which we will come to later, go into the responsibility of the local authority in the distribution, and then it ends up by stating

That the Director General should be kept fully informed concerning the distribution of relief and rehabilitation supplies within any recipient areas, and under all circumstances there should be the fullest working cooperation between the governments or recognized national authorities concerned and the administration for this purpose.

So that he has to know all about what goes on.

Then there is the

power

resolution on nondiscrimination. The Director General has the of saying that supplies cannot be continued to be given if there is discrimination or political use. Then there is ultimate power of the governments to discontinue their distribution.

Mr. VEATCH. Mr. Acheson, may I raise a point on this subject under discussion?

Mr. ACHESON. Yes.

Mr. VEATCH. Is it not to be expected that the Director General will reach an agreement with the government to which supplies will be given which will spell out in some detail the general policies laid down by the council? So, the specific things Mrs. Bolton has in mind would be made by special consideration of the council and are made in that way. Mr. ACHESON. The agreement of November 9 provides for that procedure. It is in Article 1, paragraph 2 (a). It appears in the Joint Resolution 192, and is on page 3, beginning at line 12:

The form of activities of the Administration within the territory of a member government wherein that government exercises administrative authority and the responsibility to be assumed by the member government for carrying out measures planned by the Administration therein shall be determined after consultation with and with the consent of the member government.

Now, it is expected that under that provision and the more detailed provisions of the resolutions that there will be working agreements reached between the Director General and the various governments as to the part each shall play in the relief measures within that territory. Mrs. BOLTON. Then, as I understand it, the U. N. R. R. A. continues to recognize the member governments, and what opportunity would there then be for the people in these countries to express their sense of the kind of government that they wish?

Mr. ACHESON. The two questions have no relation to one another, Mrs. Bolton. The people within the area will do whatever they wish to do. U. N. R. R. A. will take no part whatever in that political process. Mrs. BOLTON. Not as such, Mr. Secretary, but when you are hungry and a government comes in and says, "I will feed you, I am your government. Remember, I am your government." You are pretty hungry, and you take that government, do you not? And are not we in agreeing to this making it almost impossible for there to be anything except acceptance of the member governments unless there be actual revolution?

The CHAIRMAN. Would you mind the Chair asking a question there? I think you might clarify it, Mr. Secretary. Could you kindly explain for the benefit of the committee the procedure of our Government, which I guess is the procedure of all governments, in recognizing governments of any country, whether in revolution or anything else? In other words, you have a procedure whereby you recognize a certain government and as soon as you recognize a government in control of that country until the government is changed and you recognize it of course your procedure is recognizing the government in power, is that right?

Mr. ACHESON. Yes, sir; that is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Kindly explain how does our Government or how does our State Department do that with countries in peacetime or in wartime.

Mr. EATON. Do what?

The CHAIRMAN. Recognize the governments.

I think what is in Mrs. Bolton's mind, if I understood correctly, is that Mrs. Bolton fears some of those governments are governments the people object to, and how are we going to recognize those governments so as to function with the government in control?

Mr. EATON. I think I might add to what the gentleman says that that raises another question. What Mrs. Bolton assumes is that when this relief comes to the distressed people abroad they are to be informed it is done entirely by the American Government.

Mrs. BOLTON. No, sir.

Mr. EATON. Or is it to be done by an international organization representing 44 countries.

Mrs. BOLTON. No, sir; the U. N. R. R. A.

Mr. EATON. Why should we worry? We have only got one fortyfourth of it.

Mrs. BOLTON. I am troubled over the answers to the questions.

Mr. EATON. Pardon me.

Mrs. BOLTON. I am troubled over the answers to the questions we will have to make to the Members of Congress and to the people as to what use these supplies will be put into. And if we put into the hands of a government-in-exile the materials which would give them undue strength with which to go into their country and insist upon being the accepted government. It might be far from what the people want. Therefore I should be desirious not to have this magnificent international machinery have qualities that would make it a danger to the principles for which the Atlantic Charter has spoken.

Mr. EATON. The functions and desires of the alimentary canal among people will obtain unobstructed by any change in the Government, and that is really what we are dealing with here so I do not see the purpose of the question. Perhaps I do not know.

Mrs. BOLTON. I won't pursue this overlong, but I do think it is one of those questions that need to be considered if we consider this whole problem thoroughly.

Mr. EATON. Yes.

RELATION OF U. N. R. R. A. WITH EXISTING AGENCIES DEALING WITH SUPPLIES

Mrs. BOLTON. Then in connection with what you say the French are going to buy the supplies that will go into France very largely? Mr. ACHESON. Yes, Mrs. Bolton.

Mrs. BOLTON. Do they buy through U. N. R. R. A. or to whom do they go?

Mr. ACHESON. If you will turn to Resolution No. 1 you will see the answer to your first question. We turn to page 4 of part II, which is Resolution No. 1, the part of it with the roman III,

Relation of the administration with existing intergovernmental authorities and agencies established to deal with supplies, shipping, and related questions. The first paragraph deals with the activities. Let us read it. It is as follows:

1. The activities of the administration in bringing assistance to the victims of war will be so conducted that they do not impede the effective prosecution of the war. The prosecution of the war demands that scarce supplies and shipping tonnage shall be carefully controlled and allocated in order to assure not only that the supplies and shipping requirements of the armed forces are fully met, but also that a fair distribution of supplies is made between the civil populations of the various areas having due regard to their actual or potential contribution to the war effort. It will therefore be essential, both for the conduct of the war and in order to promote a fair distribution of supplies between the inhabitants of areas with which the administration is concerned and those of other areas, that demands upon supplies and shipping presented by the administration should be coordinated with other demands through the use of the existing intergovernmental agencies concerned with the allocation of supplies and shipping.

That is, first of all, the over-all picture. Whatever U. N. R. R. A. does it will do through the existing intergovernmental agencies concerned with allocation.

Then we go to paragraph 2, as follows:

It will be an essential part of the functions of the Administration to secure a fair distribution of goods which are in short supply and of shipping services to and among the various areas liberated or to be liberated. For this purpose the Administration must have full knowledge of all the relief and rehabilitation import requirements of such areas, whatever arrangements may be contemplated for procurement or finance. Therefore, member governments shall keep the