moment to assess when such a station should be established. I would await at least the coupling experiments to be done by the Gemini before this decision should be taken. Senator SMITH. Dr. Berkner, I should like to compliment you on your statement. I am happy that you have analyzed the numerous factors involved in military space missions as a part of our deterrent military policy and I thank you. Dr. BERKNER. Thank you, Senator Smith. IMPORTANCE TO MILITARY OF PASSIVE SYSTEMS WORTH COST OF THE ENTIRE PROGRAM Senator STENNIS. Mr. Chairman, I think the doctor's statement here is a remarkable statement and very fine indeed. We are indebted to him, and to you, too, for bringing him here. I was a member of the Preparedness Subcommittee when the Russian Sputnik No. 1 went up. I remember the hearings we had following that-the empty feeling we had as to uncertainty about the future, and I am very happy as to what has happened since then. We have taken the initiative in moving forward, and I think I may say during this day when Congress is blamed for a good many things such as not taking enough part in running the Government-I think this is one field where Congress furnished some of the leadership in the creating of NASA and the special committees. I have certainly looked back upon it very pleasantly. Mrs. Smith and I were on the subcommittee that held the first hearings on the first appreciable budget that NASA had, and I have been impressed with the remarkable accuracy with which they then described what was going to happen and what they were going to do, right on down to Major Cooper. I didn't see how they could do it, but they did and it was an amazing thing. As far as the military aspect is concerned, I feel that if we were second best in space development, we would soon be a fourth-class nation, because it would just develop that way. I think you have summed up here, too, in a very fine way, on page 5 of your statement when you discuss the military application in space. Passive inspection and surveillance satellites which are purely defensive systems are important enough to the military that their value should be worth the cost of the entire program. Of course, that is not the only reason why space is important. Mrs. Smith is always one step ahead of everybody else in thinking up questions. Her questions covered so well the points I had in mind, I am glad to adopt her questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Edmondson. NASA HAS RESPONSIBILITY TO REPLACE SCIENTIFIC TALENT THROUGH SCHOLARSHIP PROGRAM Senator EDMONDSON. Just a couple of questions, Dr. Berkner. There has been some testimony here concerning the scholarship and fellowship program that NASA has, and I am sure that you are quite familiar with that. Do you have any criticism to offer of that program? Do you think it should be run in a way different from the way it is run? Dr. Berkner. No. The Space Science Board has always had the opinion that, since NASA would be using some of our scientific and technological talent, it was the responsibility of that agency, along with any Government agency that used a substantial amount of that talent, to endeavor to replace it through scholarship and fellowship programs. I believe furtheremore that the point made this morning by President Seitz of the Academy that the universities need to be brought more closely into the space program to enhance its effectiveness is in part stimulated by this scholarship program of NASA. INSUFFICIENT SCHOLARSHIPS AVAILABLE Senator EDMONDSON. There has been some testimony here to the effect that there are already in the graduate field a sufficient number of scholarships and fellowships available. Dr. BERKNER. This is simply not true, sir. Senator EDMONDSON. That answers the rest of my question because it was further testified to that for NASA to come in and provide these scholarships that it would be merely replacing something that was already there or taking the responsibility from someone else or some other organization. You do not agree with that? HEAVY RESPONSIBILITY FOR BUILDING UP GRADUATE SCHOOLS Dr. BERKNER. If you would permit me, Mr. Chairman, I should like to explore this matter a bit, because there is some misinformation in this field and I would like to correct it. In 1940 about two-thirds of the men and women receiving doctoral degrees in the United States came from 20 universities. In 1963 two-thirds of the doctoral degrees granted in the United States still come from 20 universities. This means that during the 23 intervening years no substantial new graduate university has emerged in this country. Now, it is quite true that the 20 big graduate universities that were producing the great majority of our doctoral candidates have grown during this time. But the rate of growth of doctoral degrees in the United States is not as fast as the rate of growth of bachelor's degrees in the United States. I note further that if we go to the very intellectual States of the Northeast or the Far West, that about 15 per 1,000 high school graduates receive their doctoral degrees. If one goes to the areas involving the 100 million population of the United States not in these areas, the number is more nearly 5 per 1,000 graduates of high schools that receive their doctoral degrees. This means we have a heavy responsibility for building up graduate schools in other areas of the country so that the intellectual motivation is equally distributed over our whole Nation. It is a matter in which I am very directly involved in Texas and in your State of Oklahoma at the present time. NASA SCHOLARSHIP SELECTION MADE BY UNIVERSITIES Senator EDMONDSON. It was further testified along that line that there was some criticism of the fact that NASA was selecting these graduate students. As I understand it, to the contrary, the students are picked out by the universities with whom NASA has such arrangements, is that correct? Dr. BERKNER. I am sure that is correct. Senator EDMONDSON. And you think that method of selection is very satisfactory? Ďr. BERKNER. Yes. NASA has other programs in which it receives assistance from the National Research Council. However, the receipients of scholarships under NASA's sustaining university program are chosen by the universities themselves. Senator EDMONSON. You think this procedure that is being followed by NASA contributes to the problem to which you were just addressing yourself? Dr. BERKNER. Yes, sir. We made a typical examination of a physics department in one university where we identified a half dozen students whom we felt were qualified to go on to graduate education. None of these students could go on because there were no scholarships available to them. This is just one typical university in one department. Senator EDMONDSON. Thank you, Doctor. THINGS ARE MOVING IN THE SOUTHWEST The CHAIRMAN. I want to say I thank Senator Edmondson for bringing up this question because this is an old and favorite theme of mine with Dr. Berkner. He had an article, was it in the Saturday Review? Dr. BERKNER. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. Do you recall the title of your article? Dr. BERKNER. The title was not mine, it was that of Saturday Review. I believe they called it "Renaissance in the Southwest," but I didn't object to it too strongly. The CHAIRMAN. I got a copy of this fine article and sent it to my State university and I said we had better get on the ball with this thing here and try to develop some graduate students in our part of of the world, particularly with all of the projects we have on atomic energy in our State. I shall ask a question of the man I think is the best person to put it to. Dr. BERKNER. I would just interrupt to say things are moving down there. The CHAIRMAN. I know they are and you have been no small part of it. SCIENTIFIC JUDGMENT NOT INFLUENCED BY NASA GRANT I am sure the reporter who wrote the story had no improper motives because he is an old and trusted friend. But there was a story a day or two ago that implied that of the witnesses who were going to appear at these hearings-10 in all-9 of them might have been prejudiced by the fact they were getting grants in aid or some financial aid from NASA. He was not trying to be a scandalmonger but he was merely suggesting that these people have a contract with NASA. The question I would like to ask you is: Do you think your judgment concerning U.S. space policy is affected by any connection you or your institution may have with Government research grants or contracts? Dr. BERKNER. Mr. Chairman, I have noted in some recent public notices that there is some implication that those who favor the space program have something to gain from it. As you know I have been associated with the space program since its very beginning. At no time have I personally received one dime either directly or indirectly from the space effort. In my organization, which is the Graduate Research Center of the Southwest, a nonprofit organization, some of our faculty are working on a space project funded by the NASA. We are also putting some of our own money, some of our own funds, into this project, because our scientists believe it has great scientific potentiality. But our organization has nothing to gain from this grant. Under the circumstances, I would only say that we are associated with a space program because we believe that it has great potentialities, I do not believe that my judgment is in any way influenced by this grant since I personally have never had one dime from it. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. I appreciate your being here tremendously and I am sure the others do as well. Dr. BERKNER. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. We all come from States that are not involved in this very heavy turning out of doctors of philosophy and graduate students. We appreciate the things you are now doing. Dr. BERKNER. Thank you, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Dr. DuBridge. Doctor, your work is well known to all of us, and we appreciate your being here. We regret that you had to wait as long as you did. Dr. DUBRIDGE. Shall I then proceed and you will call time for lunch when you think it is time. The CHAIRMAN. All right. The biographical sketch of Dr. DuBridge will be inserted in the record at this point. (The statement referred to follows:) DR. LEE A. DUBRIDGE, PRESIDENT, CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY, PASADENA Lee A. Du Bridge was born in Terre Haute, Ind. He received his B.A. degree from Cornell College in Mount Vernon, Iowa, in 1922, the M.A. degree from the University of Wisconsin in 1924 and the Ph. D. in 1926. His major field was physics. He was elected to Phi Beta Kappa and Sigma Xi. Dr. Du Bridge was at the California Institute of Technology as a National Research Council Fellow from 1926 to 1928. He taught physics at Washington University in St. Louis, Mo., from 1928 to 1934. In 1934 he went to the University of Rochester, New York, as professor of physics and chairman of the department. From 1938 to 1942 he was also dean of the faculty of arts and science. From 1940 to 1945, while on leave of absence from the University of Rochester, he was engaged in radar research as director of the radiation laboratory at the Massachusetts Instutute of Technology under the U.S. Office of Scientific Research and Development. Since 1946 he has been president of the California Institute of Technology. Dr. Du Bridge is a member of the National Academy of Sciences and of the American Philosophical Society, a fellow (and past president) of the American Physical Society, and Benjamin Franklin Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, London, England. He serves as a board member of the National Science Foundation, the Rockefeller Foundation, the Los Angeles World Affairs Council, the Henry E. Huntington Library and Art Gallery, and Community Television of Southern California. He was recently appointed to the Distinguished Civilian Service Awards Board by President Kennedy. He holds honorary degrees from 20 universities and colleges. He received the King's Medal for Service in the Cause of Freedom (British) in 1946, the Research Corp., Award in 1947, the United States Medal for Merit in 1948, the Golden Key Award (NEA) in 1959, and the Arthur Noble Award (Pasadena) in 1961. Dr. and Mrs. Du Bridge live at 415 South Hill Avenue, Pasadena. They have a son, Richard Alvin, living in San Jose, Calif., and a daughter, Barbara Lee (Mrs. David MacLeod), living in Canoga Park, Calif. STATEMENT OF DR. LEE A. DuBRIDGE, PRESIDENT, CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY Dr. DUBRIDGE. I have a brief preliminary statement to make. Copies, I think, have been distributed. Mr. Senator and lady and gentlemen, the Congress of the United States, in my opinion, has before it a task of very great importance, and also one of very grave difficulty, in evaluating the present proposed NASA program. SPACE IS A LONG-RANGE PROGRAM The decision you make here in 1963 not only affects the space program for the current year, but for many, many years to come. This is so because enterprises initiated now will continue on for a decade or two decades into the future. Also those that are not initiated will affect the program for many decades in the future. For the space program by its very nature is a very long-range program. It will not only last a year or 2 years, but for decades, indeed for generations to come. So what we do or do not do today will have a long-term effect which may be impossible fully to predict. All we can be sure of is that the nature and scale of the program this year will have a profound and partly unforeseeable effect on the future. EXPLORING THE UNKNOWN It would be an easier task for all of us who appear before this committee, and a bit easier task for the committee, too, if there were some simple yes and no answers to all the questions which you are facing. But yes or no answers for most of these questions, by the very nature of things, are all but impossible. We are dealing with a complex scientific and technical problem. We are dealing with a problem of unforeseeable political, military, economic repercussions; we are exploring the unknown, and if we but knew what the unknown had to offer, well then, we would not have to explore it. |