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Senator MAGNUSON. No one knows better than the Senator from Washington because I wrote the bill. Mr. Van Bush and I wrote the bill. We intended it to be an independent agency. Of course it has to go to a President for a budget request, and it has to come here before it is approved.
Now the budget is only advisory to us, but it is a good guide and we do not want to be without it. It helps everybody considerably. However, suppose the Interstate Commerce Commission had a research program. Would you look at that?
They were just before this committee. That is why I think of them. They have some research going on on technological matters.
Would you look at that? They are an arm of Congress. They have nothing to do with the executive department.
Dr. HORNIG. I have never had any contact with the Interstate Commerce Commission.
Senator MAGNUSON. All right, use some other independent agency. We have almost 30 of them here. Select any one of them,
NASA was established as an independent agency. That was its purpose.
Dr. HORNIG. As I said, we are a staff to the President, but the President is responsible for all of the agencies. Normally action takes place directly down the line. But many problems extend beyond single agencies.
Senator MAGNUSON. There are some agencies under the President that he is directly responsible for. There are other agencies that are independent agencies that are arms of Congress. They were set up for that. The President's responsibility with them is, of course, when he makes the budget recommendations to Congress.
Dr. HORNIG. Yes.
Senator MAGNUSON. Which we sometimes agree with and sometimes we do not.
Dr. HORNIG. That is absolutely correct. (Off the record.)
Senator MAGNUSON. Pollution control is an executive agency directly under the President.
NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION
Dr. HORNIG. Since you mentioned the National Science Foundation, I would like to be a little more explicit because I think it illustrates the problem. We do not try to run any of their business, but when they formulate their budget the problem is something like this:
The National Science Foundation is responsible for the health of basic science. But in fact it only has one-sixth of the budget that the Congress provides for that purpose. The rest is in other agencies. The National Science Foundation simply cannot put together an intelligent budget on its own without knowing something about what the plans and directions of the other agencies involved are. So that they need this information.
They must be brought into the total plan, so that if in this year the Department of Defense is maintaining a relatively level budget
for basic research, this must be known to the National Science Foundation.
This proceeds through the Office of the President by and large. It is more complicated than simply the total budget level, though, because what may be just as important is whether the Department of Defense is shifting any of its emphasis from physics to oceanography, as the Office of Naval Research has been, if it is changing its balance among fields.
The National Science Foundation cannot do its job well unless it is aware of these things. So that it is in this kind of relationship, where things pass through the Executive Office of the President, that we are really involved.
Senator ALLOTT. I would like to still call your attention to this: I feel that point that I have made with respect to your statement on page 3 is well taken, unless I misconceive the functions of your Office to some extent.
On page 5, at the bottom of the page you talk of where your added staff strength would be used for science policy development. And I read to you from the National Science Foundation Act to which the chairman has referred, section 3-A:
The Foundation is authorized and directed to develop and encourage the pursuit of a national policy for the promotion of basic science and education in the sciences.
Then it goes on and says, under section 2, subsection 2:
To initiate and support basic scientific research in the mathematical, physical, medical, biological, engineering and other sciences by making contracts or other arrangements, including grants, loans and other forms of assistance for the conduct of such basic scientific research and to appraise the impact of research upon industrial development and upon the general welfare.
FUNCTIONS OF FOUNDATION
And then item 6-I really think that these functions of the Foundation, Mr. Chairman, of which there are eight, ought to be put in the record at this point.
Senator MAGNUSON. All right. (The information follows:)
NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION ACT OF 1950
[PUBLIC LAW 507-81ST CONGRESS]
An Act to promote the progress of science; to advance the national health, prosperity, and welfare; to secure the national defense; and for other purposes.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That this Act may be cited as the "National Science Foundation Act of 1950".
ESTABLISHMENT OF NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION
SEC. 2. There is hereby established in the executive branch of the Government an independent agency to be known as the National Science Foundation (hereinafter referred to as the "Foundation'). The Foundation shall consist of a National Science Board (hereinafter referred to as the "Board") and a Director.
FUNCTIONS OF THE FOUNDATION
SEC. 3. (a) The Foundation is authorized and directed
(1) to develop and encourage the pursuit of a national policy for the promotion of basic research and education in the sciences;
(2) to initiate and support basic scientific research in the mathematical, physical, medical, biological, engineering, and other sciences, by making contracts or other arrangements (including grants, loans, and other forms of assistance) for the conduct of such basic scientific research and to appraise the impact of research upon industrial development and upon the general welfare;
(3) at the request of the Secretary of Defense, to initiate and support specific scientific research activities in connection with matters relating to the national defense by making contracts or other arrangements (including grants, loans, and other forms of assistance) for the conduct of such scientific research;
(4) to award, as provided in section 10, scholarships and graduate fellowships in the mathematical, physical, medical, biological, engineering, and other sciences;
(5) to foster the interchange of scientific information among scientists in the United States and foreign countries;
(6) to evaluate scientific research programs undertaken by agencies of the Federal Government, and to correlate the Foundation's scientific research programs with those undertaken by individuals and by public and private research groups;
(7) to establish such special commissions as the Board may from time to time deem necessary for the purposes of this Act; and
(8) to maintain a register of scientific and technical personnel and in other ways provide a central clearinghouse for information covering all scientific and technical personnel in the United States, including its Territories and
possessions. (b) In exercising the authority and discharging the functions referred to in subsection (a) of this section, it shall be one of the objectives of the Foundation to strengthen basic research and education in the sciences, including independent research by individuals, throughout the United States, including its Territories and possessions, and to avoid undue concentration of such research and education.
(c) The Foundation shall render an annual report to the President for submission on or before the 15th day of January of each year to the Congress, summarizing the activities of the Foundation and making such recommendations as it may deem appropriate. Such report shall include (1) minority views and recommendations if any, of members of the Board, and (2) information as to the acquisition and disposition by the Foundation of any patents and patent rights.
Senator MAGNUSON. We tried to put humanities in but it was rejected.
Senator ALLOTT (reading):
To evaluate scientific research programs undertaken by agencies of the federal government, to correlate scientific programs with those undertaken by individuals and by public and private research groups. Now this is exactly what you set out in the last paragraph on page 5.
REORGANIZATION Plan No. 2 OF 1962 Dr. HORNIG. Yes, sir; and that act was superseded, if I may say so, by Reorganization Plan No. 2 from which I would like to read, if I may, because it bears directly on just this point.
Senator Allott. It cannot supersede enactment.
Senator Magnuson. You cannot supersede a law by an organization plan.
Dr. HORNIG. You can reallocate the functions.
Senator MAGNUSON. There is a difference of opinion in Congress about that.
Senator Allott. Somebody may have thought they were going to do it that way, but I think you would have a pretty hard time
having that stand up in a court of law, or you would have a hard time convincing Congress.
Dr. HORNIG. I am not a lawyer, sir, but what President Kennedy's message said in the transfer of functions from the Science Foundation is the following:
The Science Foundation has proved to be an effective instrument for administering sizable programs in support of basic research and education in the sciences and has set an example for other agencies through the administration of its own programs. However, the Foundation, being at the same organizational level as other agencies, cannot satisfactorily coordinate federal science policies or evaluate the programs of other agencies. Science policies transcending agency agency lines need to be coordinated and shaped at the level of the Executive Office of the President, drawing upon many resources both within and outside of government.
Similar staff efforts at that higher level are required for the evaluation of Government programs in science and technology.
What I have been describing is quite explicitly this function which was given to us in Reorganization Plan No. 2.
Senator MAGNUSON. To advise the President.
You end up, you have to add the words "to advise the President." When you make some conclusions you say, "Mr. President," but the President cannot supersede this law. He cannot veto it by an Executive Order.
Dr. HORNIG. Well, no, but what the reorganization plan says, is, "there are hereby transferred"
Senator MAGNUSON. I do not think they are in conflict at all.
ASSIGNMENT OF FUNCTIONS
Dr. HORNIG. What the reorganization plan does is to transfer functions from the Director of the National Science Foundation to me.
Senator ALLOTT. He cannot do it.
Senator MAGNUSON. If that is true, we are going to have to pass another law.
Senator ALLOTT. We do not have to pass any law. The President cannot do it.
Dr. HORNIG. I am no lawyer. Reorganization Plan No. 2 of 1962.
These are the relevant parts of
Senator MAGNUSON. We are equal today-because we are not scientists.
Dr. HORNIG. But someone else besides me will have to pass on the validity of Reorganization Plan No. 2.
Senator ALLOTT. Did we put this in the record?
Senator MAGNUSON. Yes.
Dr. HORNIG. You have put it in the record, but I think the functions I have described are quite explicitly provided in the plan as a transfer of functions from the Director
Senator MAGNUSON. From the Administrator of the Science Foundation to you?
Dr. HORNIG. It says, "So much of the functions conferred upon the Foundation by the provisions of section 3-A1."
Senator MAGNUSON. I do not think Congress meant that. I think what this was intended to do was to provide functions for you. You can add all of those responsibilities up and come to the conclusion that there is nothing you can do except to advise the President.
Dr. HORNIG. That certainly is absolutely correct.
Senator MAGNUSON. Yes.
Senator MAGNUSON. They are supposed to evolve national science policies.
Dr. HORNIG. From there on all actions are those which are within the powers of the President.
NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES
Senator ALLOTT. We have quite a mixture here.
As I recall it, President Lincoln established the National Academy of Sciences, did he not, and he established the National Academy of Sciences to act essentially to him as the Office of Science and Technology now acts, except it was not such intent and purpose, but this is my understanding of the general purpose of it. Is this correct or not?
Dr. MACLEOD. The National Academy of Sciences is a private body, sir, that was chartered by the Government of the United States. Its purpose was to provide advice to the President and to the Government.
Senator MAGNUSON. And to Congress?
Dr. HORNIG. And it still does, but of course there is a distinction between what any private body can provide to the Government and what can be done from the President's own personal staff.
Senator ALLOTT. Yes, they were more than a private body, though, because they were chartered by the Government.
Now we have got the paradoxical situation of your insertion into this matter, which you had nothing to do with, by the way, and then you have the National Academy of Sciences, who also advises the National Science Foundation, and the National Science Foundation in turn takes their funds, or a portion of them, not all of them by any means, but takes a portion of these funds and supports part of the activities of the National Science Foundation. It is not in my opinion a healthy relationship. And then in addition to this we have the insertion of your thinking on top of this.
I just have one other question that I want to ask you about. You say on page 6 that approximately two men are devoted to full-time national defense matters. “They involve strategical and technical weapons systems."
I must say in all frankness I thought Secretary McNamara knew everything there was to know about these.
Dr. HORNIG. I think, sir, if you ask Mr. McNamara he welcomes this. We obviously are a very small effort but the suggestions we make are highly welcomed.
Senator ALLOTT. I wish he would welcome the advice of Congress equally.
“Presidential command and control,” now how do you get into presidential command and control?
Dr. HORNIG. Because there is a mixture of administrative problems, legal problems, and highly technical problems when one asks how in á