Mr. WATKINS. You think a man should go through an examination? Mr. KING. Yes, sir.

Mr. WATKINS. So do I. Thank you very much.

Mr. GARMATZ. Mr. Downing.

Mr. DOWNING. Is there much vessel traffic on Lake Pontchartrain? Mr. KING. Yes, sir. The diesel tow comprises approximately 97 percent of our commercial traffic on Lake Pontchartrain. We have a very heavy incidence of this type of traffic because these tows are utilized to push the barges containing the shell for the shell-dredging industry. The shells are dredged primarily on the west side of the bridge. As a result they must constantly go from the industrial canal, which is on the east side, through the bridge, pick up the barges, come back through the bridge and to the industrial canal.

So there is a constant east-west movement, north-south movement of these particular types of vessels.

Mr. DOWNING. I come from an area which has the Hampton Roads Bay Bridge Tunnel, an 18-mile combination bridge and tunnel. For a while we had that worry, whether a ship would crash into the bridge. Fortunately, the water around the bridge is shoal, so any ship capable of doing damage would run aground before it hit the bridge. Mr. KING. Yes, I wish we had that condition.

Mr. DOWNING. I don't think licensing will help. You will always be subject to that as long as that bridge is there and you have the tremendous traffic that you apparently do have on Lake Pontchartrain. It will always be a problem facing you. Thank you very much. Mr. KING. Thank you.

Mr. GARMATZ. We had some pictures showing some of the new types of diesel-type pushers that they have down there that are tremendous. Would you elaborate on that for a minute or two?

Mr. KING. I don't believe I was with you at the time.

Mr. SHORTLE. Mr. Garmatz, I can elaborate on that. The horsepower of the tugs operating in this lake varies from 600 to 800. There are some we consider underpowered, 200 and 300 horsepower. As Mr. King has mentioned, the industry itself has instituted this program which you, I think, are familiar with, to train their personnel and to require licensed personnel and tow safety precautions at all times. They are making a concentrated effort to work with the causeway commission as well as the other people and the industry itself to not only minimize but to eliminate this type of accident.

One think Mr. King brought out in his testimony, too, and I don't mean to jump the gun because I will be on later, is the characteristics of Lake Pontchartrain are different than they are in Chesapeake Bay where you have a defined channel.

This is a 24-mile-wide channel. The Coast Guard, even though it is knowledgeable of all the conditions, do not have the authority under law to mark a channel because of the very nature of the body of water they are operating in. But the towboats you are talking about vary.

If you are talking about the Mississippi River towboats vis-a-vis the Lake Pontchartrain tugs, those towboats will vary. Those in commercial operation will vary from 1,800 horsepower to 9,000 horsepower for the larger vessels.

Mr. KING. We don't have that type on Lake Pontchartrain.

Mr. GARMATZ. Thank you very much, Mr. King, I found out that we have permission to sit this afternoon.

Mr. Shortle, you are from out of town, from New Orleans?

Mr. SHORTLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. GARMATZ. Who else is from out of town today?

Off the record.

(Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m. the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene at 2 p.m. the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

Mr. GARMATZ. The committee will come to order. We will hear from Captain Bouchard first this afternoon.

Do you have a prepared statement?

STATEMENT OF NORMAN W. BOUCHARD, SECRETARY, INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION OF MASTERS, MATES & PILOTS, LOCAL 25

Mr. BOUCHARD. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. GARMATZ. Will you give your name and title?

Mr. BOUCHARD. Norman W. Bouchard, secretary, local 25, Pittsburgh, Pa., trustee, local 28, St. Louis, of the International Organization of Masters, Mates & Pilots.

Mr. Chairman and counsel, there is an urgent need for legislation requiring licensing and certification of officers of diesel motor vessels, especially on inland waters where the States have failed in their endeavors to require licensing and certification of these vessels while navigation and the increase of commercial trade makes it not only unsafe but creates hazardous conditions while our cities become a target for possible disasters similar to the Texas City disaster of a few years ago.

There is much evidence that the unlicensed and unskilled personnel operating these vessels carry an unsurmountable amount of combustible liquids without any knowledge of the rivers traveled and not only making highly dangerous conditions, but creating a situation which becomes deplorable. There is much evidence also that marine casualties occur as a result of the inability of these unlicensed operators to cope with a situation of being unskilled and unfamiliar with the

waters.

Also to be considered is that in a national emergency there is a great demand by our Government and maritime interests to have ready at hand highly skilled personnel. After World War II and due to the present conditions there has been no incentive for our youth to engage in this profession which is one of the most important lifelines in our economy, while supporting our troops and military personnel.

In the event that our duly elected representatives fail to act on these proposed and legislative matters most vital to this country, then the responsibility of being unprepared and unrealistic must be borne by these representatives, since experience dictates that there is a continuous need for skilled and licensed personnel to man these vessels.

Just to say one more thing, gentlemen, I believe there was testimony presented here this morning relative to persons acting as master or pilot who have occasionally fallen asleep in the pilothouse and thus creating this hazard and eventually resulting in a casualty I will say, under the licensing program, there is no question that if a man acting in an officer capacity or any capacity of responsibility will think twice before so-called sleeping on watch, because he has to face the Coast Guard for possible loss of that document or that license. We wish to go on record favoring legislation which is very important for the manning and licensing of the personnel aboard motor vessels. Thank you very much.

Mr. GARMATZ. Is there any unemployment now among your group in your particular territory?

Mr. BOUCHARD. No great unemployment; no, sir. It may be seasonal. People want to leave for vacation purposes, but there is no great problem as far as unemployment in the Pittsburgh or St. Louis

area.

Mr. GARMATZ. Then, if we require a license for these tugs, and so forth, where do we get them?

Mr. BOUCHARD. I understand, sir, that our international organization, along with labor groups, is promoting sort of an educational program for training these people. In addition, I understand the Federal Government is reactivating its program. Years ago, during World War II, there was a program by the Federal Government to train people in this industry. That is taking place today.

Mr. GARMATZ. The territory of the particular organization that you represent, what part do you take in geographically around Pittsburgh or Pennsylvania?

Mr. BOUCHARD. All of western Pennsylvania.

Mr. GARMATZ. What do you mean by "western"?

Mr. BOUCHARD. The Ohio River, the Allegheny River, and the Monongahela River. And, of course, St. Louis, the Mississippi River, the Illinois, and so forth.

Mr. GARMATZ. They all come under the union you represent?
Mr. BOUCHARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GARMATZ. Are there any questions, Mr. Tupper?

Mr. TUPPER. If a "grandfather" clause was submitted in any of these bills protecting skilled men without licenses, would you object to having this written into the legislation?

Mr. BOUCHARD. No, sir; we would not.

Mr. TUPPER. I have no further questions.

Mr. GARMATZ. Thank you very much, Mr. Bouchard.

Mr. BOUCHARD. Thank you, gentlemen.

Mr. GARMATZ. If you feel you have any more information you want to submit to the committe later on, you can mail it to the committee, and we will be happy to include it in the record.

Mr. BOUCHARD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. GARMATZ. You are quite welcome.

Mr. Lambert, will you step forward and give your name and title for the record, please?

STATEMENT OF JOHN W. LAMBERT, PRESIDENT, UPPER MISSISSIPPI WATERWAY ASSOCIATION, TWIN CITY BARGE & TOWING CO.

Mr. LAMBERT. My name is John Lambert. I am appearing before this subcommittee as president of the Upper Mississippi Waterway Association. This an organization of some 150 members representing the national waterway carrier and shippers in the upper Mississippi Valley. I am also appearing on behalf of my own firm, Twin City Barge & Towing Co., as its president. In both capacities I am here to oppose the enactment of H.R. 156, H.R. 723, and H.R. 7491.

Mr. GARMATZ. You say this is an organization of some 150 members representing the national water carriers and shippers. Are there any tugboat people involved in this group?

Mr. LAMBERT. Yes, sir; a substantial number of bargelines.

Mr. GARMATZ. How many? If you don't have the number, you can furnish it for the record.

Mr. LAMBERT. I certainly can. I can give you a list of the entire membership. I don't have it with me. I will have the secretary of the association send it to you.

Mr. GARMATZ. I would like the members of your association, especially those in the towing business, so that we can place it in this part of the record so that we may know who this organization is and whom they represent.

Mr. LAMBERT. I will see that that is sent to you immediately.

(The information referred to follows Mr. Lambert's testimony.) Mr. LAMBERT. My company is involved in harbor towing operations in the Chicago metropolitan area and in the Twin Cities of St. Paul and Minneapolis. In this operation we utilize two tugs and eight towboats which range in horsepower from 140 to 1,000 horsepower. Our primary function is the movement of barges for the major bargelines from landing at the lower end of our harbors to docks and terminals well within the metropolitan area, and the movement of these barges back to the landings at the lower end of the harbors. The sphere of our activities is generally no longer than 40 miles, frequently as short as a few hundred feet, and our movements average about 15 miles. Although our largest horsepower towboats and tugs are capable of handling up to six barges, we are generally involved in one- and twobarge movements. The primary reason for this is the narrow locks and channels through which we must operate and the limited capacity of the docks and terminals we serve.

Our vessels are manned by a seven-man crew consisting of two pilots, four members of the deck force, and one cook. The crew lives on board the vessel and operates on the 6-on and 6-off watch basis. Our boats are designed for this size crew both because of operations and economics. If the legislation presently before us is enacted and our manning were to be increased because of this legislation, it would have a disastrous effect on our operation. In the first place, we do not physically have enough space on our vessels for one or two more crewmembers. In the second place, inasmuch as labor is 50 percent of our oper

ating cost, the addition of one or two members to our crew would completely disrupt our economic structure. And finally, additional crewmembers are simply not needed.

I am most fearful of this legislation because it appears that it is directed primarily at operations such as mine. Based on comments on pages 2 and 3 of the Coast Guard Study of Towing Vessel Operations, which forms the background of this legislation, it appears that the Coast Guard is directing their main scrutiny at smaller vessels. The Coast Guard makes the amazing observation that these vessels, which seem to be the source of the trouble, were not visited but appeared to be less well maintained.

This indicates a complete lack of knowledge on the part of the observing officers as to the type of service and method of operations in which these boats are employed. Anyone familiar with river operations can testify that it is much easier to maintain a line haul towboat than a harbor boat as to outward appearance. As a technical study, the observation that "smaller vessels were less well maintained" was meaningless. The smaller vessels, which the study seems to indicate are the troublesome element in the industry, include harbor switchboats, dredge tenders, contractor's workboats, shipyard utility boats, midstream refuelers, sand and gravel towboats, tenders to salvage rigs, and a variety of other vessels. All of these operations are distinct and seperate businesses with entirely different operational and economic backgrounds. To lump these diverse elements together is a vast oversimplification.

I find it extremely hard to believe that four Coast Guard officers could become experts in the complex and many-sided towing industry in a 1-week inspection in which they admittedly looked at but did not visit the smaller vessels.

The legislation before you has been proposed primarily in the name of safety. The towing industry has several safety regulations. The first and most obvious is economic self-interest. Every marine operator strives to avoid sinkings, fires, explosions, collisions, and injuries to his personnel, because it is economically harmful to his operation. As in every business, the towing business has good and bad managers. However, the costs are so high and the disasters so great that a bad manager in the towing business simply cannot continue in operation for any length of time.

Another primary safety regulator in our industry is our insurance. Marine insurance is little more than a time payment plan. The slipshod towing operator is quickly and severely punished for his shortcomings by his marine insurance. A small company with a $30,000 annual premium that suffers $100,000 worth of damage claims in a year will most assuredly pay a premium in execss of $100,000 the next year. This economic retribution frequently causes the collapse of the poor operator, and there is no escape from it. There are only a handful of primary marine underwriters and the experience of any operator is common knowledge to all of them.

Another safety regulator common to many of us is our unions. All union contracts contain a clause which states that the employees will not be forced to work under dangerous or unsafe conditions. And I must state that the unions watch us pretty carefully on that.