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Secretary WILSON. Well, the work of the chief clerk has increased with the growth of the department. He has the custody now of the building, and I have insisted that the building include everything in it; that, if anybody wants new furniture, or anything of that kind, he will have supervision of it and shall see to it, and we have increased, or we propose to increase, his salary in that amount. The Treasury Department, the Post Office Department, etc., have more money, and possibly they give more work to their chief clerks. The chief clerks of the Treasury, Interior, and Post Office Departments receive $4,000. I desire to submit that to you for consideration.

The CHAIRMAN. In addition to his duties as custodian, or as chief clerk, what are his principal duties?

Secretary Wilson. He supervises the purchase of supplies. We have got all of our mechanics into a shop by themselves on account of economy, and he has charge of them. He has a pretty wide field of authority.

The CHAIRMAN. How long has he been there upon that salary?
Secretary Wilson. I think he has been there two years.
The CHAIRMAN. As chief clerk?
Secretary WILSON. As chief clerk.
The CHAIRMAN. And before that, was he in the service?

Secretary WILSON. Yes. The previous chief clerk died, and the one before him resigned. This is the third chief clerk we have had. But this man is effective and attends to his business and does it well. Then we have a personnel commission, ordered appointed by the President—the previous President to this one-in all of the departments. If there is anything that needs inquiring into with regard to misbehavior, it is the business of the personnel commission to attend to it. He has that to attend to also.

The CHAIRMAN. Does he represent the Secretary on those occasions ?

Secretary Wilson. He represents really the department. The personnel commission consists of the Assistant Secretary, the Solicitor, and the chief clerk.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any further statement that you desire to make in regard to that?

Secretary WILSON. I think that is all the statement I have to make. The CHAIRMAN. What is the next change that you wish to make ?

Secretary Wilson. The next change is in line 13, page 2. That refers to our inspector. Three or four years ago we asked Congress for an inspector. When we get wind of anything that we do not think is right, it is the inspector's business to look into it and see what the facts are in regard to it. He merely acts as a sleuth in anything that we have. We send him anywhere in the United States where anything is suspicious or may not be right. We send that man after it, and he is exceedingly efficient.

The CHAIRMAN. We notice that the House committee favored the estimate as you have just given it, and the amount was reduced on the House floor from $2,750 to $2,500. Is that correct?

Secretary Wilson. The objection was, on the House floor, as to the increase. The House committee agreed to it.

The CHAIRMAN. It went out on a point of order?
Secretary WILSON. Yes, sir; it went out on a point of order.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further that you have to say about the inspector ?

Secretary Wilson. I think not.
Senator Perkins. What do the post-office inspectors receive?

Secretary Wilson. I do not know that we have any data as to that.

Mr. ZAPPONE. I think they receive as high as $3,000; they are graded from $1,800 to $3,000 per annum.

The CHAIRMAN. I notice in the changes suggested here from one law clerk to three law clerks (p. 2, line 13). Why the increase of one to three ?

Secretary Wilson. I will read a note to you with regard to that. The law clerks for whom provision is requested at $2,500 each are P. D. Cronin and R. W. Williams.

Mr. Cronin, under the supervision of the Solicitor, conducts the law work of the department connected with the enforcement of the food and drugs act, including the preparation of reports of violations to the Attorney General, advice to United States attorneys on questions of law arising in the prosecution of the cases, and the preparation of notices of judgment. During the last fiscal year 1,162 violations were reported to the Attorney General. The performance of his duties requires much overtime. Mr. Cronin is a member of the bar of Massachusetts and Nevada, and a lawyer of high ability. His services are worth at least $2,500 per annum; present salary, $2,000.

R. U. Williams, under the supervision of the Solicitor, conducts the law work of the department arising out of the administration of the national forests. Ten law clerks in the field and six in Washington work under his direction. He personally prepares opinions on questions raised by the Forester and reviews opinions given to the district foresters by law clerks in the field. During the last fiscal year 56 formal opinions were written and 2,331 cases .were handled involving contested claims to lands within the national forests, and 423 agreements, 196 leases, and 207 bonds were prepared.

Mr. Williams is a member of the bar of the Supreme Court of the United States and of the Supreme Courts of Indiana and Florida. He formerly received $2,500, but resigned. When reinstated, the only salary available was $1,800 per annum. He has excellent legal attainments and is exceptionally qualified by years of experience in the law work of the department. The performance of his duties requires much overtime work. His services are easily worth $2,500. One law clerk who works under his supervision receives $2,200, and eight others receive $2,000 each.

Mr. Williams, under the supervision of the solicitor, conducts the law work of the department arising out of the administration of the national forests. There are 10 law clerks in the field and six in Washington under his direction. We have six subdivisions of our forests and we have located on each one of them a law clerk so as to advise these district foresters. Then, we have a corps of six of these men in Washington.

The CHAIRMAN. The estimate you made was for two law clerks?

Secretary Wilson. I have been reading about both of them. The first was Cronin and the last was Williams.

The CHAIRMAN. And in this statement you make an estimate for three law clerks.

Senator GUGGENHEIM. One more than the original estimate.

Secretary Wilson. Mr. Williams had been away on some family matters and came back to us, and it was desirable to retain him. We employed him when he came back at the only salary that was then available in the office, $1,800.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, with reference to statutory places. Was there any reason for placing them on the statutory roll?

Secretary Wilson. These are statutory places, and that is why we have come to Congress, if anything is done with them.

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The CHAIRMAN. You wanted three on the statutory roll, and that is one of the reasons you suggest ?

Secretary Wilson. I suppose one of these men is to be transferred from a lump sum to the statutory roll.

The CHAIRMAN. And that would make no change in the amount ?

Secretary Wilson. Yes; it would in his salary. We have to come to you for anything on the statutory roll.

The CHAIRMAN. If he was transferred from the lump-sum to the statutory roll would the transfer involve any increase ?

Secretary Wilson. Yes, sir; one of them is now getting $2,000 and the other $1,800.

The CHAIRMAN. It would increase it by that amount?

Secretary WILSON. It would be increased. We think both should get $2,500.

Senator CHAMBERLAIN. You spoke of "both.” You meant to say three?

Secretary Wilson. We have one on the roll now at $2,500. That is the explanation.

Senator CHAMBERLAIN. And this would add two more, making it $2,500 for each, in addition?

Secretary Wilson. Yes, sir; it would make three in all.

Senator GUGGENHEIM. Ít is really to take care of the men who are already employed by you, as I understand ?

Secretary Wilson. Yes, sir; but we can not keep them on. It is not the policy of Congress to have them stay on the lump-sum roll.

The CHAIRMAN. If three were given you, would that make a new place or places for the appointment of new clerks?

Senator PERKINS. It takes in new clerks, anyway.
Secretary Wilson. Two are taken from the sump roll.
Senator GORE. It changes the place without increasing the number.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not employ any new law clerks to take these places ?

Secretary Wilson. No; but we can not give them $2,500. Under the statutory roll we can not increase anybody's salary without your authority.

Senator GORE. The places from which you take them would not be filled by new men ?

Mr. ŽAPPONE. These new places are now on lump-sum rolls—one is on the insecticide roll and the other on the Forest Service roll. These men are detailed to the Solicitor's office. Under a provision of law the Secretary is required to transfer these men from the lump-sum rolls to the statutory roll, and is asking for a small increase in each

It does not increase the number of employees, and it does not reduce the appropriations of the bureaus concerned, because when taken from the rolls of those bureaus the money will revert to the bureaus concerned and be used by them for miscellaneous expenses. Their duties and everything else remain the same; it simply means a transfer to the Secretary's roll.

Senator CHAMBERLAIN. If you take them from the lump-sum roll, ought there not to be a consequent diminution in that roll ?

Mr. ZAPPONE. The bureaus say that they can ill afford to do that. They detailed the men to the Secretary's roll because the Secretary had no places himself and urgently needed the men. It was done as an accommodation to him and as a temporary help to his office.


Senator CHAMBERLAIN. What would become of the money in the lump fund that has heretofore been paid to those two men ?

Nir. ZAPPONE. It will go back to the bureau and be used by the bureau in each case for miscellaneous expenses-that is, for new lines of work, purchase of supplies, etc.

Senator CHAMBERLAIN. Ought that not to be cut out? It is the same as to increase the roll. We are practically increasing the roll $5,000.

Secretary Wilson. If you remember, Congress gave us a new division last year, that was to inquire into insecticides that were being used in the country—manufactured here and being imported from foreign countries—that gave us new work altogether, and that naturally made more work for more people, and I think the committee of the House would not give us any increase. We put it down to the lowest possible amount-$87,000. That came to be $87,000 because the President called upon the Secretaries to bring their estimates to him and he wanted to impress some savings on the mind, and $87,000 would make even money, and that is how it came to be $87,000.

The CHAIRMAN. In this instance the lump sum is not diminished ?

Secretary Wilson. No, sir; we want a little more, but they did not give us any.

Senator GUGGENHEIM. In other words, your work is increasing from year to year, instead of decreasing ?

Secretary Wilson. Yes, sir; we wanted $100,000 for the insecticide, but they only gave us $87,000—just what we had before, so that any moneys that are left in the lump-sum roll can be used.

The CHAIRMAN. What were these three clerks receiving before the suggested change? What are they receiving now?

Secretary Wilson. One has been receiving $1,800, the other $2,000.

Senator GUGGENHEIM. In other words, these two gentlemen are receiving $3,800 yearly from the lump sum?

Secretary Wilson. Yes, sir.

Senator GUGGENHEIM. And it is proposed to give them $5,000 and transfer them?

The CHAIRMAN. But one was receiving $2,500.
Secretary WILSON. Yes, sir; one of the three.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand. The next change suggested is in line 16, page 2.

Secretary Wilson. Yes; one additional law clerk there.
The CHAIRMAN. Was that estimated for?

Secretary WILSON. Yes; that was estimated for. I think that was not allowed by the House committee.

The CHAIRMAN. Give the reason for that change.

Secretary Wilson. I have the reasons here written out and will read them. They are as follows:

This employee is a member of the bar, renders valuable assistance in the transaction of the legal business of the department, and assists the Department of Justice in the preparation of briefs and prosecution of cases. He also has charge of one of the large divisions of the office of the Solicitor.

That is why we think we ought to have another man.

Senator CHAMBERLAIN. Are you transferring one of the law clerks from the lump-sum roll to this roll?

Secretary Wilson. It is transferring from the Forest Service, I believe.

Senator CHAMBERLAIN. Then you are leaving the fund that he was formerly drawing from intact?

Secretary Wilson. Yes, sir.

Senator CHAMBERLAIN. So you are really increasing the appropriation?

Secretary WILSON. It is a pretty small matter, when we get to using money out in your country

Senator CHAMBERLAIN. I understand. I just wanted to get the facts, Mr. Secretary.

Secretary Wilson. Yes; I think that is the fact.

The CHAIRMAN. In line 24, you now ask for 12 messengers; the bill provided for 9?

Secretary Wilson. Yes.
Senator GUGGENHEIM. How much was recommended ?

Mr. ZAPPONE. Mr. Chairman, the Secretary intends to submit a recommendation looking to the promotion of the mechanics in the mechanical shop of the department, and as that is one of the places, and as I think all of those places should be taken up together, would the committee mind passing that place for the present ?

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Mr. ZAPPONE. And the same with regard to the place on the next line?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; that change is from 15 to 10?

Mr. ZAPPONE. If you will look at page 3, line 8, you will notice “one construction inspector.

The CHAIRMAN. One construction inspector. Mr. Secretary, was that estimated for and allowed by the committee, and did it go out on the House floor?

Secretary Wilson. It was estimated for and allowed by the House committee. It went out. Those people are all competent mechanics. Some of them have been in the department for 25 years, and they came all together and told me that they were not able to live on the small salaries they received. And I said I would bring the matter to the attention of Congress and see if I could get them a little increase.

The CHAIRMAN. It went out on the House floor on a point of order? Secretary Wilson. Yes, sir.

Senator GUGGENHEIM. What does that refer to? It says "One construction inspector"?

Secretary Wilson. When we built our two wings down there he was an assistant to the architect in a certain line of work in the construction of those buildings, and he has been considered a valuable man along his line.

Senator GUGGENHEIM. He is really a building inspector ?

Secretary Wilson. If we do any building anywhere we use him, and we thought he ought to get $200 more.

Senator GUGGENHEIM. That is not a large salary for a man who has a responsible position of that kind.

Senator GORE. What is he?

Senator GUGGENHEIM. He is a building inspector. He checks up on the building to see that the Government is not defrauded in the way of specifications.

Mr. ZAPPONE. The next amendment is on page 4, line 1. Three mechanics changed to four mechanics.

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