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The CHAIRMAN. Are you bringing them together? What is the suggestion there?

Secretary WILSON. This was estimated for, but it was not allowed in the House.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything to be said with regard to that change?

Secretary WILSON. Simply that the ability that we are employing there we think is not being sufficiently paid for.

The CHAIRMAN. And the increase of work makes it necessary to add one?

Secretary WILSON. There is no question about the increase of work. We would not ask for it if there was not an increase.

The CHAIRMAN. I suggest that you proceed and give us statement. Suppose that you proceed with the next item. Secretary WILSON. "One skilled laborer, $960."

The CHAIRMAN. Was that estimated for?
Senator CHAMBERLAIN. Not estimated.

a full

Mr. ZAPPONE. No; it was not estimated for, Mr. Chairman. It did not get to the committee when the estimates were sent in because it was overlooked.

Secretary WILSON. This is a peculiar man. He drives the carriage of the Secretary. He has done it for every Secretary who has ever been in the Cabinet. The valuable feature of it is he is a colored man and is always there on the instant that you order him. He knows the town. If you give him a number where you want to go

he will get there.

The CHAIRMAN. How has he been employed before, under what

title?

Secretary WILSON. He has been employed as a messenger or skilled laborer at a salary of $840, and we are proposing to give him $120 more if the committee will do it. I have a little bit of feeling about the subject. He has been driving me for 15 years, night and day, when I have had to go anywhere. He did the same for my predecessor, Mr. Morton, and the same for Mr. Rusk.

Senator GORE. How long has he been getting $840?

Senator GUGGENHEIM. How long has he been employed by the department-20 or 25 years?

Secretary WILSON. I have been there 15 years he has been there in that capacity for 20 years.

Senator GUGGENHEIM. He has been pretty loyal.

The CHAIRMAN. The only change is to increase the amount paid him by $120?

Secretary WILSON. Yes, sir; he has not been increased for 14 years. The CHAIRMAN. We will now go back to page 3, where we left off. Mr. ZAPPONE. Can they be taken up as a group.

The CHAIRMAN. Has the Secretary these changes in mind, Mr. Zappone? Have you been over the matter so that he is familiar with them?

Secretary WILSON. I went over them very carefully. The men came to my place and made an appeal to me and said they could not support their families. Some of them have been there ever since the department was organized, and I said I would bring their cases to your attention.

The CHAIRMAN. There seems to be quite a good many changes, and perhaps you may group them all together.

Mr. ZAPPONE. I think if the Secretary could speak of the changes as a group, first letting me read them to the committee, stating just what the changes are, it would facilitate matters. I will read what is contemplated.

If the changes indicated are made it will permit of the following promotions:

Four clerks, messengers, or laborers, $720 to $840; 1 chief engineer and captain of the watch, $1,800 to $2,250; 2 cabinetmakers or carpenters, $1,100 to $1,200; 2 cabinetmakers or carpenters, $1,080 to $1,200; 1 cabinetmaker or carpenter, $1,000 to $1,200; 2 cabinetmakers or carpenters, $960 to $1,200; 2 cabinetmakers or carpenters, $900 to $1,200; 3 cabinetmakers or carpenters, $900 to $1,020; 1 electrician, $1,000 to $1,200; 1 electrical wireman, $900 to $1,020; 1 (laborer) electrical wireman, $840 to $1,020; 2 electrician's helpers, $600 to $840; 2 painters, $900 to $1,200; 1 painter, $840 to $1,020; 1 painter, $720 to $1,020; 2 plumbers or steam fitters, $900 to $1,200; 2 plumbers or steamfitters, $900 to $1,020; 2 plumber's helpers, $600 to $840; 1 skilled laborer (plumber's helper), $720 to $840; 1 blacksmith, $840 to $1,020; total increase, $6,690.

Senator GUGGENHEIM. Were any of those amounts raised in the estimates?

Secretary WILSON. They have not been raised for some years.
The CHAIRMAN. Would that be the total increase?

Mr. ZAPPONE. Just for these particular changes in the mechanical shop. It does not take in the other changes on the Secretary's roll, which we have read item by item.

Senator GUGGENHEIM. The only thing we have to consider here is, do these men get from the Government or are the estimates providing as much as they would get elsewhere?

Secretary WILSON. No; they are not.

Senator GUGGENHEIM. They are entitled to get from the Government as much as they get outside, and if they are not, we ought to do it.

Secretary WILSON. They are not getting as much, and that is what has aroused my sympathy. There is another matter that I want to call your attention to. We want to keep our carriages and wagons looking decently. Send one down to get it painted and it will stay there three or four months. Enormous bills came in, and I lost. patience with that and ordered that we have our own painters do our own painting work of every kind and description. If it does not look quite as nice as some of the professional painters would make it, we will get along with it. So we have that economy brought about in the department. Everything of that kind is done there instead of sending to shops in the town.

Senator GORE. Are these painters kept busy pretty much all of the time?

Secretary WILSON. All the time. We do a good deal of work in sending out boxes of this and boxes of that from several bureaus, and they all had their carpenters. I brought them all in one bunch, so as to get them under the chief clerk.

The CHAIRMAN. The total increase, as you have it here, according to the House bill, for the office of the Secretary, was $2,480 over the

appropriation of last year. Now, with the changes suggested, what would be the total increase?

Secretary WILSON. This proposed change here is what Mr. Zappone gave you-$6,690.

Mr. ZAPPONE. It was submitted as a supplemental estimate to the House, but the House committee said that it was received too late to be considered. The result was that it was not considered in the House.

Secretary WILSON. But the House did this, singularly enough. They found a lot of our employees there who were getting very much less than this lot here and raised their salaries.

Mr. ZAPPONE. Yes.

Secretary WILSON. They raised another lot that was still further down.

Senator GORE. Who were still lower down?

Secretary WILSON. I do not think that was estimated for, but they thought that particular set appealed to them more than this particular set.

The CHAIRMAN. The House raised quite a large number of the lower salaried men?

Secretary WILSON. Yes; still lower down.

The CHAIRMAN. They raised them a certain amount?
Secretary WILSON. Yes; they did.

The CHAIRMAN. That seemed to be the policy, the raising of the lower salaried men?

Secretary WILSON. Yes; it was their policy, but they thought they had gone as far as they cared to go, and this came in a little late. Senator CHAMBERLAIN. Let me ask you this question: I see you have a great many carpenters and plumbers and cabinetmakers and different kinds of skilled mechanics. The other departments have practically the same. Could there not be established a kind of clearing house where the different classes of mechanics could do the work for all the departments and avoid the duplication of the work? Secretary WILSON. There might be for some of it, but there is a great deal of our carpentry work that is peculiar. A bureau wants to send a certain sized box somewhere with plants in it; but of course what you suggest can be done. We had the work done previously in each bureau.

Senator CHAMBERLAIN. I do not see how you keep all these men busy.

Secretary WILSON. We do.

Senator PERKINS. None of them are required to work over eight hours a day, are they?

Secretary WILSON. No; we would not dare to do that.

Senator PERKINS. And they have a vacation with full pay?

Secretary WILSON. We would not dare to work them later than eight hours.

Senator PERKINS. I say, they have 30 days' vacation each year, do they not?

Secretary WILSON. Yes, sir.

Senator PERKINS. On full pay?

Secretary WILSON. Yes, sir; that is the law.

The CHAIRMAN. The total provided in the House bill for the office of the Secretary was $278,930. Now, with your estimates, as you

present them for the office of the Secretary, it would make $294,430. I would like to know if that is correct.

Mr. ZAPPONE. That is correct.

It would make an increase of $15,500 over the amount as passed in the House bill and $17,980 over the present act.

Senator GUGGENHEIM. It is the question really of the relative comparison of what they could get outside with what they get inside, and it should be based on that.

Senator GORE. Are they employed all the time?

Secretary WILSON. They would not be employed every day in the year, but they are our men and understand the work.

Senator GORE. A man working in the departments could afford to work for a little less than if he was outside and employed every day in the year, because men outside would not get employment every day of the year.

Secretary WILSON. Those mechanics all get $4 a day.

Senator GORE. But they are not employed as regularly as these men?

Secretary WILSON. No, sir; that is true.

WEATHER BUREAU.

The CHAIRMAN. The Weather Bureau is the next. There is a change noted on page 4, line 15, an addition of $250, making the clause read, "One assistant chief of bureau, $3,250."

Secretary WILSON. Yes; that is a proposition to increase the salary of an assistant chief.

The CHAIRMAN. Did that go out on the House floor on a point of order?

Secretary WILSON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. It was estimated for?

Secretary WILSON. Oh, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. How does that office, the assistant chief of the bureau, compare with other offices; I mean as respects salaries?

Secretary WILSON. I think it is lower than a good many assistants. He has been there a very long while. He takes care of the bureau in the absence of the chief, as all assistants must.

The CHAIRMAN. How long has he been with the bureau?

Secretary WILSON. He has been there ever since I have been there. Senator CHAMBERLAIN. Who is the assistant?

Secretary WILSON. His name is Williams.

The CHAIRMAN. It is stated in your notes that he has been there 35 years.

Mr. ZAPPONE. And has not received a promotion during the past 10 years. It is a most deserving case.

Senator GUGGENHEIM. Is he a man of education and ability? Secretary WILSON. He is a man of education along his line of work. Nowadays if a man is educated along his own particular line of business he is a well-educated man.

The CHAIRMAN. On line 20 do you notice the change there, Mr. Secretary?

Secretary WILSON. Yes, sir; there is an increase there of $60 each. The committee increased this in conformity with their opinion about

increasing the lower grades, but it went out on the floor on a point of order.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, your estimate was $900?

Secretary WILSON. We did not estimate for that, Mr. Chairman. The House did this of its own accord.

The CHAIRMAN. The next item is "Two assistant foremen of division," instead of one. That is on line 23.

Senator GUGGENHEIM. That involves no increase of amount? Secretary WILSON. This was in the estimate and was passed by the House committee. It went out on the floor on a point of order.

The CHAIRMAN. As the bill was formerly it read "One assistant foreman of division, at $1,600; one assistant foreman of division, at $1,400." This change only adds $200?

Secretary WILSON. That is all.

Senator GUGGENHEIM. And it takes care of one man?
The CHAIRMAN. It puts together the two men.

Secretary WILSON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. The next amendment is on page 5, line 1, "One lithographer, $1,500," instead of $1,300. Was the $1,500 estimated for?

Secretary WILSON. That was estimated and agreed to by the House committee and objected to on the floor.

The CHAIRMAN. But it was agreed to by the House committee?
Secretary WILSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And went out on the House floor?

Secretary WILSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Because of its being an increase?

Secretary WILSON. Because of its being an increase. According to the rule, one objection puts it out.

The CHAIRMAN. What about that party, how long has he been there, and what is his efficiency?

Secretary WILSON. The man holding this position is a first-class lithographer, and men of similar capacity both in the Government and private institutions receive a compensation of at least $1,500 per annum. He is a man of unusual skill and it has been difficult to retain him at this salary. This was in the estimates, was passed by the House committee, but went out in the House on a point of order. The CHAIRMAN. The next amendment proposed is in line 12, page 5, "$1,300" instead of $1,200 for one engineer?

Secretary WILSON. That is on all fours with what I have been speaking about. It is a little low.

BUREAU OF ANIMAL INDUSTRY-GENERAL EXPENSES.

The CHAIRMAN. The next item is under general expenses on page 13, where there is a suggested change?

Secretary WILSON. A part of the increase is necessary in connection with the operation and maintenance of the new animal quarantine stations at the ports of Baltimore and Boston, for the purpose of which Congress appropriated in the Agricultural bill for the current fiscal year, and part will also be used for the further extension of the work of eradication of tuberculosis from domestic animals. I estimated the amount that I am estimating here. The House committee cut that down from $611,800 to $592,700.

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