Mr. PASSMAN. As you operated a full year for $96,000, would there be any great harm done, since this is a new program, if we placed on a limitation of the same amount for fiscal year 1964?

Mr. MADDEN. I think in answer to your question, sir, it isn't an item that you can control dollarwise. You either have to have the program or not because otherwise then you would be picking and choosing among which employees could get this type of travel. Mr. PASSMAN. Then maybe we had better strike the entire thing

out.

INCREASED PAY COSTS

The third portion of your proposed increase of $5,010,000 is the estimate of $1,290,000 to "annualize" the first step of the Federal Employees Salary Act of 1962 and to provide the second step increase which is effective January 1, 1964; is that correct?

Mr. COFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PASSMAN. The balance of this proposed increase for the fiscal year 1964 is $255,000 to provide for two extra days occurring in fiscal year 1964. Is that also correct?

Mr. COFFIN. Yes.

OVERSEA EMPLOYEES IN INTERREGIONAL PROGRAMS

Mr. PASSMAN. Yesterday, in connection with your testimony on interregional expenses, I believe you stated that the number of U.S. employees overseas had been reduced and I note on page 13 the same statement. However, looking at page 4, I note that in connection with oversea operations that the end-of-year employment on June 30, 1962, was 1,034 U.S. nationals; on June 30, 1963, it was 972; but in fiscal year 1964 it goes back up to 1,037, an increase of 3 over fiscal year 1962. Would you comment?

Mr. COFFIN. I lost you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. PASSMAN. In the testimony yesterday dealing with the interregional expenses you stated, I think, that the number of U.S. employees overseas had been reduced. Now to abbreviate it, as you go on through you will find it is an increase of three rather than a reduction. Would you reconcile the difference between the two state

ments?

Mr. COFFIN. The 1964 estimate includes the additional employees proposed for Latin America. We say that we have reduced and we are holding the line in the other regions but this is where we need to have these 65 people.

Mr. PASSMAN. The statement yesterday, as I recall it, would indicate a decrease rather than an increase, and I am only establishing that you do actually have an increase.

Mr. COFFIN. The increase would be in 1964

Mr. PASSMAN. It is still in the administrative expenses and you are dealing with a worldwide program.

Mr. COFFIN. But I am not sure there is an inconsistency.

Mr. PASSMAN. Yes, if one day you say there is a decrease and when we actually go to the records and start working it over and we find it is an increase, we just want the record to show

21-178-63-pt. 4-47

Mr. COFFIN. I thought from hearing you--I may be mistaken-that the statement was that we had decreased but that the increase of three

Mr. PASSMAN. That, I think, was the testimony yesterday, that you had decreased the number of employees. Now, we do not deal with administrative expenses by saying, "Well, yes, there is a decrease but when you include this region it is an increase." You deal with this item, administrative expenses, on a worldwide basis, do you not?

Mr. TENNANT. I don't recall the colloquy too well yesterday but I think it applied just to regional activity and this is administrative activity, the figures you read today. They are two separate items.

EMPLOYEES OF WASHINGTON STAFF OFFICES

Mr. PASSMAN. How many employees are assigned to the information staff?

Mr. MADDEN. Thirty-one people are provided for in this budget against 32 positions.

Mr. PASSMAN. How many are assigned to the congressional liaison staff?

Mr. MADDEN. Twelve.

Mr. PASSMAN. How many are in the Office of Program Coordina tion?

Mr. MADDEN. Fifty-one positions. We are budgeting for 48 employees.

Mr. PASSMAN. By what designation is Mr. Miller's office known! Mr. MADDEN. His office is included in those figures.

Mr. PASSMAN. What is his office?

Mr. COFFIN. Legislative Program Coordination Staff.

Mr. PASSMAN. What is the cost of operating Mr. Miller's office? Mr. MADDEN. I have only the total cost of the Office of Program Coordination.

Mr. PASSMAN. Could you tell us the cost of the congressional liaison staff, per year?

Mr. MADDEN. For 1964 congressional liaison staff, $176,000.
Mr. PASSMAN. Just what are their duties?

Mr. COFFIN. Mr. Chairman, this 12 includes professional personnel and clerical personnel. Their principal job is to respond to requests from Congress for information on problems that bother them.

I think this is probably one of the smaller liaison offices of the governmental agencies but their job is to serve the Congress with whatever requests come down and oftentimes it will be a question from a Congressman about either an issue-it can be a letter to the Administrator-on Indonesia or Ghana or Guinea or sometimes it concerns a question of a contract for his constituent. Sometimes it is personnel, people in his constituency who have come to him and want to make application to a Federal agency for employment and the request is, can we set up interviews for that person. It is a similar function to that performed by the military liaison.

Mr. PASSMAN. I thought you people handled most of those matters by correspondence.

Mr. COFFIN. Correspondence is a great deal of the activity.

Mr. PASSMAN. Is it about like the State Department liaison that works on foreign aid?

Mr. COFFIN. Well, they work on all matters connected with foreign affairs.

Mr. PASSMAN. Do you have to reimburse them for anything they do insofar as footwork for foreign aid is concerned?

Mr. COFFIN. There is a separate staff.

Mr. PASSMAN. We do reimburse State in many instances for personnel. Is that part of it?

Mr. MADDEN. We reimburse them to a considerable degree for oversea support of our people.

Mr. PASSMAN. But nothing at the Washington level?

Mr. MADDEN. Not for this purpose; no, sir.

Mr. PASSMAN. Please break down these three items:

The employees of the information staff.

The congressional staff.

The program coordination staff.

And all related expenses.

(The information follows:)

Breakdown of administrative expenses for information, congressional liaison and

program coordination staffs

CONSULTATION TRAVEL

Last year I believe you testified your maximum payment for consultant services was $75 a day. Has there been any increase in the maximum per diem or is it holding steady?

Mr. COFFIN. No.

Mr. PASSMAN. Your estimate for consultation travel, page 17, is estimated to be $266,000 in fiscal year 1964; is that correct?

Mr. MADDEN. $266,600; yes sir.

Mr. PASSMAN. What is "consultation travel"?

Mr. COFFIN. For example, we have an advisory committee of economists and educators. When they come to Washington for a meeting we would pay their travel to and from Washington.

Mr. PASSMAN. Would this be the same people who may get this per diem payment?

Mr. COFFIN. They would get per diem as a consultant.

Mr. PASSMAN. Would they fall in this same category, though, as a consultant-this is the travel part of it?

Mr. MADDEN. No, sir. This consultation travel is our own employees primarily.

Mr. PASSMAN. Your employees?

Mr. MADDEN. We will call a mission director in to Washington to discuss various problems.

Mr. PASSMAN. Is there any regulation dealing with how close to home leave they could be called in on these consultations? It would be a break for him if he happened to be called in just about the time home leave was ready; would it not?

Mr. COFFIN. We couldn't plan that. If there was a serious problem in a country

Mr. PASSMAN. If that is the way things worked out, occassionally a person would get such a break; would he not?

Mr. COFFIN. What would be the benefit to him?

Mr. PASSMAN. The Government would pay his expenses.

Mr. COFFIN. I think on home leave the Government pays his expenses.

Mr. PASSMAN. There is no milage there at all?

Mr. MADDEN. We do get this mileage, when they come home on leave we consult with them too, to take advantage of it.

Mr. PASSMAN. It does not work against leave while they are being consulted? I do not want to pinch pennies, I just want to understand

it.

Mr. MADDEN. If they are on duty consulting with us at headquarters it is not leave time.

Mr. PASSMAN. What has been your experience with this account in the past 5 years, this consultation travel? Can you give it to us beginning with 1961?

Mr. MADDEN. We can give you the cost.

Mr. PASSMAN. Please do so, for 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, and esti

mated for 1964.

(The information requested follows:)