Mr. ALTMEYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. O'NEAL. When do you think that those blanks will be signed, and when do you think they will be returned to you so that you can make the study, and what is the element of time involved insofar as this year's Budget is concerned?

Mr. ALTMEYER. May Mr. Corson answer that off the record?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes; off the record.

INCREASE IN ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES DUE TO TAKING OVER OF STATE ORGANIZATIONS

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Mr. Altmeyer, you say that this $5,800,000 represents an increase in the expenses of administration. How much of that is due to the stepping in of the Federal Government and taking over part of the State governments' administration?

Mr. ALTMEYER. None of it, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. None of it?

Mr. ALTMEYER. No, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How much of the $3,000,000 plus loss that is in here with respect to the Wagner-Peyser Act is the result of the Federal Government stepping in and taking over part of that work? Mr. ALTMEYER. The loss of the Federal Government aid given to the States, you mean?

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Yes.
Mr. ALTMEYER. $1,500,000.
Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. $1,500,000?

Mr. ALTMEYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. The accrued leave would come under that heading?

Mr. ALTMEYER. No; I thought you had reference to the loss under the Wagner-Peyser Act.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I want to know how much of the total that you are asking us to appropriate for is due to the fact that Uncle Sam has moved in on the various State organizations and taken over parts of them?

Mr. ALTMEYER. Only $1,500,000.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. The accrued leave to the State employees would have to come in, would it not?

Mr. ALTMEYER. No, sir; because the Federal grants would have covered that. We would have had to cover that leave.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Under what legal authority was the action taken?

Mr. ALTMEYER. At the direction of the President, I presume, under his emergency powers.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Do you not know? You know that the alleged legal authority was fought bitterly?

Mr. ALTMEYER. No, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You mean you do not know what the legal authority was?

Mr. ALTMEYER. No; I do not know it was fought bitterly; I thought that was the question.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. There were two questions. Don't you know what the legal authority was?

Mr. ALTMEYER. Yes.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. What was it?

Mr. ALTMEYER. The Attorney General's Office advised us that the President had this power under his constitutional executive power. Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You got a written opinion from the Attorney General to that effect?

Mr. ALTMEYER. No, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You have nothing in writing to that effect? Mr. ALTMEYER. No, sir. We did not pursue the matter further, because there was also this power contained in the appropriation act. Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Which authority did you act under, and did you have any written legal opinion with respect to either law to the effect that you had the authority to take the action referred to?

Mr. ALTMEYER. No, sir. We had no question in our mind as to the legal authority.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You had no legal opinion that you had authority with respect to it?

Mr. ALTMEYER. No, sir. We did not seek legal opinion because we had no question about it in our minds.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Perhaps not in your minds, but there certainly was question in the minds of others.

RESEARCH AND STATISTICS DIVISION OF SELECTIVE SERVICE BOARD

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Mr. O'Neal's question calls attention to the fact that in December the Selective Service Board requested a brand new set-up with a personnel of 784, involving something over $1,000,000 on an annual basis for a new research and statistics division. The functions of that new set-up are said to be "the establishment and maintenance of a division of research and statistics for the purpose of accumulating and tabulating data vital to the planning and administration of the selective service."

Why does the Social Security Board come into this picture in view of that set-up? What is the need of that set-up if the Social Security Board is going to do the work?

Mr. ALTMEYER. We do not know the items contained in the request of the Selective Service System. All we know is that so far as this Occupational question is concerned there will be no duplication what

ever.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Do you know what the research and statistics division of the Selective Service set-up is doing?

Mr. ALTMEYER. No, sir. I imagine our technicians do.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How do you know you are not duplicating the work of that division?

Mr. ALTMEYER. Because Mr. Corson's discussions with General Hershey indicate that there will be no duplication.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Can Mr. Corson answer what work the research and statistics division of the agency is doing as distinguished from the work for which you are requesting this money today?

Mr. CORSON. I cannot advise you what the research and statistics division of the Selective Service System is doing, but I would like to reemphasize that there is nothing in the appropriation requested here for any statistical work on these questionnaires or analysis of them or tabulation of them.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. It is designed to accumulate data, is it not? Mr. CORSON. No, sir; it is not.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. What is it designed for?

Mr. CORSON. To obtain questionnaires from each registrant indicating his occupational skill to be used as a basis for referring workers to employers who need workers with particular skills.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Is not that accumulating data?

Mr. CORSON. It is accumulating data if by that term you contemplate such a process as takes place when an unemployed worker files an application for work, at an employment office, and indicates his occupational skill.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions?
Thank you, Mr. Altmeyer.

MONDAY, MARCH 16, 1942.

OFFICE OF EDUCATION

STATEMENTS OF JOHN W. STUDEBAKER, COMMISSIONER OF EDUCATION; LT. COL. N. A. BURNELL, DIRECTOR OF DEFENSE TRAINING, FEDERAL SECURITY AGENCY; JOHN C. WRIGHT, ASSISTANT UNITED STATES COMMISSIONER FOR VOCATIONAL EDUCATION; WILLIAM T. SPANTON, CHIEF, AGRICULTURAL EDUCATION SERVICE; JACK BARBASH, SENIOR TECHNICAL ADVISER; ANDREY A. POTTER, EXPERT CONSULTANT; AND ROY A. SEATON, DIRECTOR, ENGINEERING, SCIENCE, AND MANAGEMENT DEFENSE TRAINING

VOCATIONAL COURSES IN PRODUCTION OF FARM COMMODITIES AND REPAIR, ETC., OF FARM MACHINERY AND EQUIPMENT

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Studebaker, we have a request in House Document No. 627 for a modification of the language of paragraph 4, to educate defense workers in relation to the repair, operation, and construction of farm machinery. Let us have a statement on that, will you.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. The general purpose, Mr. Chairman, is to make available a portion of the appropriation of $15,000,000 for courses which are not now authorized as we understand it under the law, namely, courses aimed at the production of farm commodities and at the repair, operation, and construction of farm machinery.

We have interpreted the present law in such a way as to require courses for farm youth leading toward induction in war industries rather than aiming at increased production of food on the farm or repair of farm machinery. Moreover, the other feature of this requested change provides that we shall not have to confine the courses to youth but may offer such courses to adults.

Under the existing law we interpreted it to mean youth up to 25 years of age, so that this proposal does just two things-it opens up those courses to people beyond 25 years of age, and it broadens the

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scope of the courses to include those which are designed to keep people on the farm rather than to take them from the farm.

The CHAIRMAN. It requires no additional funds?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That is right.

Mr. SNYDER. The work would be carried on in institutions already established?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ludlow?

Mr. LUDLOW. How many people, Doctor, do you think would take that training?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I do not know, but quite a number. Dr. Wright or Dr. Spanton might answer that specific question, or Dr. Gregory. Mr. SPANTON. We estimated early in the year, after this program had got under way, that the new defense courses would have around a million farmers and farmers' sons that would take these courses during the year. Of course for the balance of the year enrollments would probably be considerably lower than that, depending upon how soon the funds would be available.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. O'Neal.

Mr. O'NEAL. I do not exactly understand the purpose of this, Doctor. You say you are gaing to train the young farmer to do war industry work rather than engage in production on the farm?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Congressman O'Neal that is what we have been doing, as a matter of fact, with the appropriation.

Mr. O'NEAL. You really train the farm boy to do factory work, is that it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir. Now, since the law was passed war has been declared and the food-production program set up by the Department of Agriculture is such as to convince us that in many places at least the courses should be expanded to make possible the additional training of persons who are needed to produce food for the victory program.

Mr. O'NEAL. In other words, you propose now to stop teaching them how to be factory men, and instead, to teach them how to be farmers, is that it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Not altogether, Congressman. There are still some places in the country where we will need to continue the present type of training.

Mr. O'NEAL. I mean, to a large extent you feel that that training is now unnecessary?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. To a growing exent it is unusual to train youth to leave the farm.

Mr. O'NEAL. So you feel that the training of the farm boy to be a factory hand now is pretty much passé, is that it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. In many places, and in those places there is a demand for this other kind of work.

Mr. O'NEAL. You are coming back to us now with the program, that is no longer needed, and you want to start another program of teaching them how to be farmers, is that it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. We expect to continue the present program of training rural youth for work in defense industries but want to broaden this program so as to include courses in food production and farm machinery repair.

Mr. O'NEAL. It is rather difficult for me to follow.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Snyder.

Mr. SNYDER. These courses, as I said a moment ago, would be conducted in institutions already established-such as what?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. In departments of vocational agriculture in rural high schools largely, and in the agricultural shops of these schools.

Mr. SNYDER. I am glad to hear you say that this swould give to these farmers' sons over 25 years of age an opportunity to attend, in the evenings, or at some other convenient time, and that they would have an opportunity to receive instruction. If we keep on rationing various things, such as rubber, and developing substitutes for them, some one will have to know, as we say, how to "fix that machinery," and these schools will aid and assist those farm boys who are over 25 years of age, is that correct?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Johnson.

Mr. JOHNSON of West Virginia. What do you propose to do with these machine shops that are now opened up to take care of farm machinery? Are you going to close them up, and teach these people, over 25 years of age, how to do the job, and close up the little industries over the country?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; no.

Mr. JOHNSON of West Virginia. That is, in effect, what you are doing, if you are going to take the farmer's son and train him for the farm?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. What we are proposing here is only an extension of what we are already doing under the provisions of the SmithHughes and George-Deen Acts in the way of agricultural education.

Mr. O'NEAL. But you have equipped these places to train them to be factory workers, now. How about that equipment; is it well adapted to train them to be farmers?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Much of it is; yes.

Colonel BURNELL. The training we were giving them in the vocational agricultural shops was only broad general training, because the equipment there was too limited to give specific trade training. It did, however, facilitate his learning specific skills through further training in specific courses.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you concluded, Mr. Johnson?

Mr. JOHNSON of West Virginia. The Government money you have been spending in teaching these people heretofore, then, is all a loss, now, and you are going to reverse your plans; is that the idea? Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Colonel BURNELL. No; this expanded program to include food-production courses will be in addition to what is already being done.

Mr. JOHNSON of West Virginia. I happen to have come from an agricultural district, probably the best one in West Virginia, and this is more or less known to me. I do not think you have been doing a thing in West Virginia in that section by way of teaching the farmers.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I think, Congressman Johnson, that Dr. Spanton and Dr. Gregory might be able to give you definite information about West Virginia and perhaps for your district; but I would like to make this one point clear. Last year under the regular program of vocational training under the Smith-Hughes and George-Deen Acts, there