were taking on quite a few men in the central office, while we were waiting for the students to be inducted into the schools I had no supervisional work to do, so Mr. Hamilton said that I had better take up this class for training men as they came into the office. When the men, who were to become advisers and training assistants, were hired by the Federal Board they were sent to the Federal officethat is, the men were hired from this office and put into the training class, and they stayed for two weeks, some may have stayed three or four days more than two weeks, and they went through the reading and study of the rules, regulations, information sheets, and code, at the end of that time they were placed out in the district offices. I had met all of the D. V. O.'s and had known them quite well and as time went on I visited the different district offices so I was able to make recommendations to Mr. Hamilton for placing these advisers and training assistants. I recommended only the men who were most efficient, and I have never had adverse criticism made of any man that I recommended for a D. V. O. office. The recommendations were made in such a way that if a man did not prove satisfactory within 10 days the D. V. O. was to notify central office and the man then became subject to further assignment. Not one of the men that I recommended was ever sent back. The CHAIRMAN. What is your status? Miss ENSOR. Training assistant the last two months. The civil service commission let down the bars and I was able to take a civil. service examination. The CHAIRMAN. You are really officially attached to the board? Miss ENSOR. At the present time I am officially attached to the board as training assistant. As this work grew so in the central office it was put into the charge of Mr. Crowell and my last connection with the training class was about March 10. Since that time and before that time I had visited seven of the districts and had gone through and organized the work for the illiterates in the seven districts where we have had the most of these men. I have also been at the district offices enough to know the procedure quite well and I have been interested to see how the procedure was being carried out in the different offices. I have been very much interested in the witnesses whom you have heard the last few days. They have all testified to things that I know of and there have been certain statements made on the witness stand which were made in my presence yesterday when Mr. Boland was put to such a severe test I was greatly concerned because I helped to organize the elementary work in that school. Many people, Dr. Fess, educators, people connected with the Federal board, and industrial men have visited that school, and they have said that up to the present time they have never seen a school that was so well adapted to this particular training for this type of men. The CHAIRMAN. I think you have qualified yourself to speak, and what recommendations would you make to this committee for the betterment of this work? Miss ENSOR. The recommendations that I have mentioned before, but I think in two or three instances I can explain a couple of points that have not been cleared. Take our civil-service examination: As I said before, these applicants are certified by the Civil Service Commission to the central office. These men are certified if they can just meet the civil-service requirements. There were 68 names submitted. When I inspected them I found masters' degrees, doctors' degrees, with years of experience as ministers, educators, teachers, and so on and so forth, but, Dr. Fess, when some of those men appeared in the flesh they were utterly impossible. One man I might make special reference to. He came with a doctor's degree. He had been a court stenographer, and he had been a typist, he had been a school-teacher, he had been a minister. As I say, he had three degrees. When he came to me, the poor soul was frayed out at the elbow and elsewhere in his clothing, and he was so emaciated looking that I had pity for him, but we could not employ him, yet on paper he was the perfect man, I think, as shown by the examination. The CHAIRMAN. There are lots of doctor degree men down in the lower section of the worst part of the city. Miss ENSOR. Another man sent to the board stated that he had held a high position; that he had been an executive. When he came to me my impression was that he wanted to be put in the training class. He at every possible opportunity tried to impress upon me that he had been an executive. Mr. ROBSION. He had been what? Miss ENSOR. An executive; but when he was put down to learn office procedure, detail work, so on and so forth, he was impossible. The CHAIRMAN. That is an awful indictment of the Civil Service. Miss ENSOR. I can not help it. I am simply telling some of the things as I have found them. The CHAIRMAN. What is your recommendation? Miss ENSOR. I went to Col. Crawford, who was in charge of the personnel-Mr. Hamilton was out of the office and I said to him, "Is there not some way whereby these men could be put into the training class and let them come to the central office and stay a few days; then let the medical department, the case department, the legal department, or some one have something to say about whether or not they can carry on this work, and not take everyone that the Civil Service Commission sends here to get a position," He said, "That would be a fine arrangement, but how can we do it?” The CHAIRMAN. You think, in order to make the Civil Service beneficial, assuming that it is proper as a principle Miss ENSOR (interposing). It is proper as a principle. The CHAIRMAN. You think it is a fair assumption that it is necessary to give a leeway to the appointive power to go beyond what appears in the papers? Miss ENSOR. It certainly is. The CHAIRMAN. That is one recommendation. What other recommendation have you to make? Miss ENSOR. May I just illustrate by a little incident that happened to me; it is simply a personal matter and it will take me but a minute. I was ill with the quinsy and they sent me a Red Cross nurse. The Red Cross nurse had been overseas and had a high standing. I was suffering from severe pain. When she came into the room she opened the door and then slammed it, then put a thermometer in my mouth and then started to roast the Federal board. She had all the qualifications and experience for a Red Cross oversea nurse and that was her way of handling a sick patient. That is the kind of trouble that we have with some of these men, they come with proper qualifications, but they have no sympathy and no understanding of working with the men and might irritate the men just like that nurse irritated me. The CHAIRMAN. In addition to the modification for more leeway in the civil service requirements, what other recommendation have you to suggest to the committee? Miss ENSOR. One of the things that is causing a great deal of discontent in our office is the salary rate. I should like to say this, that we have men in our service who are not worth the money they are getting and we have other men in the service who are not worth any more than they are getting-this is according to their constructive power, according to the influence they have upon men, and according to the amount of work they turn out-and then I would say that we have probably 15 per cent in our force who are very much underpaid. Another peculiar thing that exists-I do not know how it started, but it is working a hardship-good men that came with the Federal board last year would come in at $2,000 or $2,100 and expect that they could be raised and after they had given a year's faithful and efficient service they find that some one retards their promotion, and oftentimes they resign because they can not get a raise, and another young fellow will come in without one day's experience and he will be hired immediately by the Federal board at the rate that this other man asked to be raised to, but they would not raise him. That is one thing that causes unhappiness as far as salaries are concerned. It is not that our men feel that they are not getting enough money. The CHAIRMAN. Somebody is responsible for that situation? Miss ENSOR. Somebody is responsible for that situation and someone should find where the responsibility lies. Dr. Fess, that is something that causes an immeasurable unrest in all sections. The CHAIRMAN. If it is not a matter of law we will have to lay it up to the board? Miss ENSOR. I do not know where to place the blame; the condition exists. The CHAIRMAN. This salary feature is a distressing situation to Congress for the reason that there has been a high level of cost created through the war, and we do not know how permanent it is. So many advantages were taken during the war all along that the cost level was pushed up to such an extent that to-day we have to appropriate several times as much for the same things that we appropriated three or four or five years ago. Everybody is demanding an increase in salary, putting it upon a basis that is very persuasive; but at the same time, if we proceed upon the basis that this cost level is permanent, then there is positively no hope of a reduction of taxation later on, and we are going to start out governmentally that this high cost level is to stay for all time. It is going to cost the Government this year five times what it cost in 1916. It is bewildering to us. What are we to do? People will break their necks to get into the Government service and then make a fight to have their salaries increased. Miss ENSOR. May I say that personally I come in contact with these men connected with the Government work, and if you put a man in at $2,000 and he is a good man, has been efficient, has his heart and soul in the work, and puts in time and a half for the time he is supposed to put in, yet he can not be promoted, according to some ruling, because some one else has been promoted the year before to $3,000, and is holding on and is not doing efficient work; that is the thing that hurts. The CHAIRMAN. We tried to remedy that particular situation in the bill we passed just the other day. We could not do it in the House. We will pursue it over in the Senate to see whether we can have it remedied there. There is such a pronounced conviction that we ought not to go into the general revising of salaries until this Reclassification Commission report is acted upon that I do not know that we can make any progress in these matters. Miss ENSOR. I feel that the D. V. O., who knows the facts, should have the power to promote the men in his own force who are efficient and to demote those that were hired at a higher rate of salary and are not doing efficient work. The CHAIRMAN. That is absolutely necessary for the success of any business, and it ought to be done in the Government; I think the board could do that. Miss ENSOR. It can be done if some one just sees that it is done. I hope you will excuse me if I make a personal reference, because the man that I wish to compliment is in the room-the man who handles the constructive work of supervising the training in the New York office receives $3,000, and there are at least six men under him, some of whom the D. V. O. is not satisfied with on account of the productive work they are turning out that are receiving the same salary that he is. This man refused two positions that were offered to him that he told me about this morning, and I know that one was at $7.500 and the other at $10,000. The CHAIRMAN. That is the kind of information which we want; that shows the character of work. Miss ENSOR. There are five people in the office who receive just the same salary that he does. There are men doing splendid work in the New York office, some working 15 hours a day. If they feel that they are being appreciated they are willing and glad to put their whole souls and hearts into the work, but there should be some recognition and that recognition does not always come through money. Mr. DALLINGER. Do you understand that the board is obliged to take a man who stands the highest average on the civil-service list? Miss ENSOR. When we send a call to the Civil Service Commission. Mr. Dallinger, they say such and such a person is qualified. They may send three or four names and from those names the applicant has to be drawn. Mr. DALLINGER. As I understand the system, if you want one adviser or some other employee they send you three names, that is the usual custom? Miss ENSOR. I think so. Mr. DALLINGER. They send you three names and you have the privilege of taking one of the three: is not that right? Miss ENSOR. I think that is right. Mr. DALLINGER. And if all three, after looking at them and talking about them you are satisfied their personality is such that they are impossible you can reject all three and ask for another list? Miss ENSOR. I think that is the procedure, but they might send you 15 and out of the 15 you could not find a man whom you ought to trust with this work. The CHAIRMAN. We will take a recess until 2 o'clock, p. m. AFTER RECESS. The committee met pursuant to recess at 2 o'clock p. m. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lysons, I understood you want to make a supplementary statement to what you have stated before. ADDITIONAL TESTIMONY OF MR. J. W. LYSONS, ELKS CLUB, NEW YORK CITY. Mr. LYSON. Mr. Chairman, the attention of the Elks War Relief Commission has been called to certain testimony given before your committee recently, I think, on May 1, by Mr. James P. Munroe, vice chairman of the Federal Board for Vocational Education, relative to the work of Mr. David Harvey in connection with the motion picture produced by the Federal board and the Elks War Relief Commission for furthering the board's publicity campaign. It appears from the testimony of Mr. Munroe that he is not conversant with the salient facts in this matter, and as it is of considerable importance to the Order of Elks, the commission desires that the record contain the facts regarding this matter. The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a citation of the statement in our hearings? Mr. LYSONS. Yes; I have some notes here I would like to refer to. The CHAIRMAN. Have you the page number, so I could identify it? Mr. LYSONS. Beginning on page 1127 of part 19. Mr. Munroe stated that Mr. Harvey was "employed by the Order of Elks"; that "he had nothing to do with us"-meaning the Federal Board for Vocational Education-" in any way"; that "the only reason I ever saw him at all was because he was employed by the Elks"; that he did not know what fund he was paid out of, because "I know nothing about the Elks' business"; that "I understood from him"-meaning Harvey-"that the Elks had commissioned him to get up a moving picture to be shown covering the disabled-soldier problem. Reference was made to Mr. Harvey's picture being in the rogue's gallery in New York, and Mr. Munroe was asked by Congressman Robsion whether he thought that a man "whose picture was in the rogue's gallery, in New York would be a proper person for work like that?" Mr. Munroe replied, "I am not in the least responsible for what the Elks do." Mr. Munroe further testified that as soon as he learned that Mr. Harvey was using official stationery and other effects of the Federal Board for Vocational Education he put a stop to it, "because he had no official or other connection with us.' When asked by Congressman Robsion what activity Harvey "had been carrying on in the use of the stationery of the board, and in a |