forenoon, and more in the afternoon, for special cases. Men come into the desk and I put in a call for that case; I get them frequently in two or three minutes, which is the time necessary to carry it back from the files, draw it from the file, and bring it. Now, then, if the case is not in the file it may be in one of half a dozen sections of the office. Now, when the case is in that section, there is a key sheet which tells you it is in that section and is charged to a particular individual in that section. Occasionally individuals fall down in regarding that particular procedure, and in such instances a case is lost. I have had occasion to speak to Mr. Reid specifically on the violation of that procedure. I have had occasion to speak to him within the past week on that procedure. He has come into the placement section and left the case, or he has come into the placement section and taken a case without putting it across that charge sheet. Those cases sometimes-fortunately not very many, but sometimes-are lost for the time being, because the record has not followed the case when it leaves one subdivision and goes to another. Now, we are not entirely free from that. As I say, that entire system, I believe, is as simple and effective as we have been able to devise. It is a system that has had a good deal of thought and consideration on the part of the entire personnel of the office, and it is only effective. in so far as each individual discharges his full responsibility.

Mr. BURROUGHS. I asked Mr. Reid if there wasn't any rule or regulation in the office that would, if complied with, obviate any such condition as he described in that regard, and he told me there were rules galore; there were all kinds of rules and all kinds of regulations, but there didn't seem to be anybody there to see that the rules and regulations were complied with.

Mr. WEAVER. Well, of course Mr. Reid has been quite some time working directly under my supervision in the training section, and I have had all too many experiences which have indicated very conclusively to my mind that his power of assimilation was not too good and that his capabilities to function with others were not very highly developed; and all of those things are reflected in the statements concerning just such conditions.

Mr. BURROUGHS. He speaks, too, about the general spirit that pervades the office there with reference to this work and says, in substance, that it is a case of quantity production rather than quality; the idea being, as I gather from what he says, "How many men can we get in? It doesn't make much difference where we put them or how we do it, but just to get them in. We can attend to that later on." Mr. WEAVER. You couldn't go on that basis at all. The very procedure would make it impossible.

Mr. BURROUGHS. He gives the impression that the whole thing is done in a very perfunctory way-in fact, he uses that phrase, that word-and says that it is done without any heart at all, or, in fact, as he says, without any brains either.

Mr. WEAVER. Again I would say he is reflecting his own attitude. in the entire work. That has been his whole difficulty.

I would like to tell you something-it will only take a minute. Mr. Reid was in the advisement section in the Philadelphia office. For some time I don't remember the number of months-he came to me one afternoon and said, " Mr. Weaver, I would like to come into

the training section. My particular experience and training has been all along that line, and I believe it is the place that I can make my greatest contribution." I said, "Well, that is interesting. If you can show me that all you say is true, I will be glad to consider it. I need some personnel, but I will be very frank to tell you that my observation of your work in the advisement section "—that is, the advisement division-"does not substantiate all that you have said; and, secondly, from my several talks with you from time to time, I do not think you have the point of view nor do you show the attitude toward the disabled man that leads me to believe that you could work efficiently in this section." Well, he carried that further, and had a conference with the district vocational officer. He was quite open minded concerning the proposition, and he said to Mr. Reid that he would not consider transferring him into the training section without my approval of his action.

Well, that led to a number of conferences between Mr. Reid and myself, usually after hours and frequently for several hours. We talked very frankly and pretty thoroughly about the whole proposition. His statements were-he acknowledged some of the things I accused him of; he acknowledged his shortcomings, his willingness to improve along certain definite lines, and begged again the oppor tunity to come in. Finally I said to the district vocational officer that I believed, even in view of all that had taken place, that Mr. Reid might function in the training section on certain work. For a matter of three months he carried along very nicely-and I would have you understand that Mr. Reid and I have never on any occasion had any short-spoken words or conflict of any kind; I think I can say that of the entire personnel, but Mr. Reid particularly. He, after three months, began to show a decided falling off in his effort to hold the things that he assured me he would do and could do. Some of them, unfortunately-and many of them-he could not. I began to meet from the district medical officer and the man in charge of advisement and from other sources, "Can't you do something to keep this man Reid from quibbling and writing memos and get him to take action and advance a case?" And I have frequently taken from my desk each afternoon and each morning as many as six and eight cases on which Mr. Reid himself had written one or two or three memos, which would take that case to three separate points in the office, rather than take it in hand and do the thing that was necessary, which could be done without affecting the work of any other organization, but would advance that case.

Now, I like to see a man set a high standard, and when a man fails in differentiating between what is major and what is minor there is a real difficulty, and that was the difficulty with Mr. Reid. I would take those cases to him; I would speak to him personally; I would speak to the men collectively, but there was developing a tendency on his part to resent some of that. He was beginning to feel acclimated, I suppose, and other things, and he began to fall into some of his ways. So in June or July of 1919 I made a recommendation to Mr. Cullen, who was then district vocational officer-and, if I remember rightly, I had spoken to the man who preceded him-that Mr. Reid be either transferred to some position where he could function in a one-man job, or that he be dismissed from the service. I believe he then had

occasion to go to Washington; the matter was talked over there, and it was talked over with the district vocational officer, and he and the district vocational officer and I talked it over collectively. He said that he was under the care of a physician, and that the physician was in doubt as to whether or no he required an operation, etc. I said, "Possibly the man reflects in his attitude his physical condition." It was the understanding that he would have his whole leave of 30 days and at the end of that time come back with a new attitude.

He came back with an improvement, not so very great, but some, and carried on his work for a matter of a month or two, when I assigned him to another piece of work which was developing and which would again give him an opportunity to indicate conclusively to the district vocational officer, as well as myself, that he could do some of the things he thought he could do and should do. In that he again hopelessly failed. He came to me on one occasion when I had given him three men to help him, two of which were withdrawn, and said, "I must have more help to carry this work." I said, "Mr. Reid, I can not and will not give you more help. I do not belive you need it. Now, you do the best you can and if you can't finish it at 5.15 I will be very glad to stay till 10 o'clock or 12 o'clock each night and finish up for you each day." And I will say there that of the entire training section there is not a single man other than Mr. Reid who has ever failed to work considerable overtime. I have never seen him within the walls of the office in any of the several locations in Philadelphia for 5 minutes after 5.15 on any occasion when 5 o'clock was the closing hour. I challenged him on that. Well, I never worked any nights on the things that Mr. Reid had to do and he did them; that is, he carried them without working overtime.

Now, there were things like that come along, so finally, I believe in January, I made a second recommendation. He could not function with the personnel in the training section, the advisement section, the medical section, the case office in general, and I made a very definite recommendation to Mr. Fuller, which I think covered about three pages, and that was used as a basis for the recommendation that Mr. Grear has referred to as being submitted by the district vocational officer. I believe he gave that date as February. I think my memorandum was probably in January or about the middle of January or a little while later. I know that the district vocational officer would not take it and just send it through because of my recommendation. He would probably have gone further with it and made some views of his own, because I know it has been and always is his attitude to be more than fair to all parties concerned.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Of course, with the mere personal element, as Judge Towner suggested, the committee is not specially concerned here.

Mr. WEAVER. Oh, no.

Mr. BURROUGHS. But do you wish the committee to understand that you feel there is no basis of fact at the bottom of these several complaints which Mr. Reid made here under oath and to which I have alluded?

Mr. WEAVER. I would say that they do not represent the conditions as they have been or as they are. They are very much exaggerated and reflect very largely that which I know to be the char

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acteristics of the man; the way he sees things, the way he grasps things. He can not follow step by step that which was necessary in the growth and development of that organization; he is still working away down here in a two or three man job. He has failed to grasp it and its relationships, its functions.

Mr. BURROUGHS. It seems strange to me that he should have been allowed to stay there, if he was that type of man, that he should have been allowed to stay there as long as he did before you discovered it.

Mr. WEAVER. Will you say before we discovered it, or before weI can only say before I personally had decided that the man had had every opportunity, and then I made a recommendation that he be let go.

Mr. BURROUGHS. How long had he been there then?

Mr. WEAVER. In the training section?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No; connected with the office. If he were the type of man that you speak of, I should not regard him as a suitable man to be employed in your staff at all.

Mr. WEAVER. Well, as I explained to you, our conferences-now I am willing to accept the man at his word and give him a trial. I can believe and do believe that there are opportunities for personal matters to enter into certain arrangements, and I was quite willing to finally accept Mr. Reid's statements of his good intentions and his capabilities, and give him a trial. So far as he and I were concerned there never could be any personal feelings enter into it; he is either so far ahead of me that we can't get together, or otherwise, and that did not enter into it and never has-could not.

Mr. BURROUGHS. I think that is all.

The CHAIRMAN. You are excused, Mr. Weaver.
Mr. Fuller, will you take the stand?

STATEMENT OF MR. ROBERT J. FULLER, 112 NORTH EIGHTEENTH STREET, PHILADELPHIA, PA., DISTRICT VOCATIONAL OFFICER DISTRICT NO. 3.

(The witness was sworn by the chairman.)

The CHAIRMAN. Will you give your full name and address, please? Mr. FULLER. Robert J. Fuller, 112 North Eighteenth Street, Philadelphia, Pa. District vocational officer district No. 3.

The CHAIRMAN. What is included, Mr. Fuller, in the term "district vocational officer"? How much authority have you?

Mr. FULLER. The entire duties of managing the work in a given district under the Federal board; placing men in training and seeing that men are rehabilitated finally for civilian life.

The CHAIRMAN. To whom are you responsible?

Mr. FULLER. To Mr. Lamkin, the chief.

The CHAIRMAN. There is only one intermediary between you and the board?

Mr. FULLER. Only one intermediary between me and the board. The CHAIRMAN. Who is responsible for the selection of the men under you?

Mr. FULLER. The staff personnel are selected by the central office usually; sometimes by the nomination of the district vocational officer.

The CHAIRMAN. That would mean that sometimes you would have the selection?

Mr. FULLER. Sometimes I would select and nominate, but not appoint. That must come through the central office.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the practice of the board go beyond your recommendation-that is, would they appoint somebody under you before they had consulted you?

Mr. FULLER. They might. Usually not, however.

The CHAIRMAN. You have heard of the testimony that has been given to-day, and have read the testimony that was given the other day in reference to the Philadelphia office? One of the answers to my direct question, "What, if anything, is wrong with the Philadelphia office?" was that it was in the personnel of the office. Then I asked, “Who is responsible for the personnel?" Now, if there is anything wrong in the Philadelphia office, where would we put the blame?

Mr. FULLER. So far as the staff's personnel is concerned, I think the blame is probably at the central office first and the district vocational officer secondarily.

The CHAIRMAN. When you say "the staff," you mean your heads? Mr. FULLER. My heads of sections and advisers and placement officers and training officers-training assistants.

The CHAIRMAN. Another complaint that was made was that there was not an effective organization-in fact, there was no organization; that they were each fellow going his own way.

Mr. FULLER. I have something which I can present to substantiate what seems to be a plan of organization at least. We have in the Philadelphia office, as in all of the district offices of the board, I think, the several sections, the advisement and training section, the medical section, the placement section, the business section, and the case office or records and returns section. That practically obtains in most of the districts throughout the country. In the Philadelphia office we have in adidtion to that the stenographic room, which, perhaps, is not common to all the districts. Then, so far as the sections are concerned, within each section we have a specific plan of organization and assignment of duties which is known to most of the men, and which can be known at any time to any man who has any question to ask the head of his section or the district vocational officer regarding it.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have conferences with the men that are at the head of these various divisions?

Mr. FULLER. I have held several conferences with the staff; I have held several conferences with the entire office personnel, including the clerical staff; I have held separate conferences, one specifically, with the clerical staff; I have held constant conferences with the heads of the sections at my desk.

The CHAIRMAN. The question was propounded by some members of the committee during the progress of the investigation as to civil service, whether the effectiveness of the work was in any way interrupted by the requirement to obey the civil service regulations in the selection of men. What have you to say about that?

Mr. FULLER. It has been difficult to secure men who were qualified under the civil service for the several positions, and I have