Mr. JOYCE. No, sir; I have nothing to do with the institutional training. If a man comes in the office who is an institutional man, if everybody is busy I try to wait on him and try to pacify him and try to interest him until the institutional man can get him, because he knows more about it than I do. In the same way they keep away from my man, because they know that I know him and know what he wants. Mr. BURROUGHS. But it is equally important that that man should be followed up? Mr. JOYCE. Yes, sir; to see that he is not playing hookey and he is doing his duty, etc. I think that is being done. Mr. BURROUGHS. And that the Government is getting value received for its expenditure of money? Mr. JOYCE. Yes, sir. Mr. BURROUGHS. This whole follow-up system is very important, both from the man's standpoint, and from the Government's standpoint? Mr. JOYCE. It is almost impossible-I say almost impossible, but it is hardly possible for one of my boys to be away two days without my knowing it, because I am in close contact and I know these men that are hiring them, I know them personally, having resided here, not all my life, but since I was born, and I know all the business men, and I am very fortunate in having a personal acquaintance with the majority of them, and they take a great interest in the boys. When I tell a man that he is going to be this boy's counsellor, and that he is responsible, he just throws his chest out, and thinks he has got a lot of responsibility for that boy, and does take a great interest in him. Mr. BURROUGHS. You have had quite an experience since you came with the Federal Board. Tell the committee, if you will, in a general way, if you see anything in the operation of the system now that, in your judgment, needs correction; I mean as it is operating at the present time. Mr. JOYCE. As it is operating at the present time? Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes. 66 Mr. JOYCE. No, sir. I have seen a great many faults corrected since I have been with the organization. When I say “I," excuse the "I," but I did something the other day that probably could not have been done six months ago. There was a certain gentleman came to me-in fact he is up at the Capitol, and his son was in Los Angeles. He said his son had been discharged a year, and that he had not wanted to make any claim for compensation or training, because his father is a public man, and he deferred it, but his father said, "I wish you would take it up with my boy. I went right to the War Risk, and explained the situation. The public-health officer wired his man at Los Angeles, the boy was examined there the next day, and I had my central office wire our office in Los Angeles, and they saw him and made out his compensation papers, and a copy of his discharge, and forwarded them en here, and in 10 days the boy had been declared eligible for training under section 2 of the act. Later he was given compensation by the bureau, and it was only day before yesterday that a full check was mailed him at Los Angeles for the amount of money, 20 per cent. He got $12, I think, or $16 a month from the time of his discharge, and the check was sent to him. I got a very nice letter from the boy's father. I said I do not think we could have done that six months ago. There would have been too much red tape here, writing backward and forward, and getting permission from the central office, and that is why I say that it would have taken six or eight weeks to do it. That was not an exception. Anybody can do that, anybody who is connected with the board. Mr. BURROUGHS. In your judgment, is there now too much of what you have termed "red tape"? Mr. JOYCE. No, sir; they have eliminated a great deal of it. Mr. BURROUGHS. Has the power been sufficiently decentralized, in your opinion, has enough of it yet been placed in the hands of the district offices so that they may act in the district offices with a reasonable degree of freedom? Mr. JOYCE. Yes, sir; we can act in the district offices now with a reasonable degree of freedom; that is, the district vocational officer can. There are things that he can do that we can not in the branch offices. We submit cases for training to him and he gives his opinion right off the reel, and if there is any hurry, he will either telephone or wire. Mr. BURROUGHS. There is no especial delay to-day occasioned be- . cause of the fact that the district vocational officer has to communicate with the central office before making the decision? Mr. JOYCE. No, sir. Of course, these things have to go through the regular channel, but the delays in the channel are nothing compared to what they used to be. Mr. BURROUGHS. You say that as a business man? Mr. JOYCE. Yes, sir. Mr. BURROUGHS. Accustomed, as most business men, to take action. in a rather direct way? Mr. JOYCE. We are doing it now. We did not do it before. There were too many forms. It was the interpretation of the law, and I think they were afraid to go ahead. The CHAIRMAN. You are excused. (The witness was thereupon excused.) TESTIMONY OF MR. THOMAS C. NALL, VOCATIONAL ADVISER, FEDERAL BOARD FOR VOCATIONAL EDUCATION, STATIONED AT WALTER REED HOSPITAL. The CHAIRMAN. Give your full name and address. Mr. NALL. Thomas C. Nall; my home address is Wheetley, Ark.; city address: 300 First Street SE. The CHAIRMAN. What is your position, Mr. Nall? Mr. NALL. Vocational adviser with the Federal board, stationed at Walter Reed Hospital. The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been stationed at the hospital? Mr. NALL. Since April 21, 1919. The CHAIRMAN. What had been your previous training? Mr. NALL. I have taught school practically for 20 years, with the exception of two years as a bookkeeper. The CHAIRMAN. You say you taught school for how long? Mr. NALL. About 20 years. The CHAIRMAN. What is your work at the hospital? Mr. NALL. Vocational adviser. The CHAIRMAN. Of what does that consist? Mr. NALL. In making contact with the men before they are discharged; that is, the wounded men, the ones who are discharged, or what we term S. C. D., on a surgeon's certificate of disability, making surveys for these men. I believe the survey was explained a while ago. The CHAIRMAN. How many men are there with you-I mean connected with the board-doing the work you are doing? Mr. NALL. At the present time I have one man with me, Mr. Metcalf. Before he came out some weeks ago, Mr. Braham was with me out there, doing the same kind of work. The CHAIRMAN. How many men would you have to survey out in a hospital like that? Mr. NALL. I do not believe I understand your question. The CHAIRMAN. I am trying to get at the amount of work you have to do. Mr. NALL. Some days we have been very, very busy. We have had as many as three advisers out there at a time. They have been busy all day. Some days we are not so busy, but I should judge we have averaged somewhere between 8 or 10 men a day. The CHAIRMAN. Could one man survey 8 or 10 men in one day? Mr. NALL. The man who is surveyed. If you get hold of a man. who has a good idea of what he wants to do, and when he tells you that, and you know it is a feasible line of training he is asking for. it ought not to take longer than 30 minutes to write that survey out: but when you get hold of a man who does not know what he wants to do, or what he can do, and you discuss the different lines of training that you think would be feasible for him, it takes more time. The CHAIRMAN. Do you work every day out there? Mr. NALL. I do. The CHAIRMAN. How do you pick out the men out of the great group that has to be surveyed? Do you assume that every man is to be surveyed for vocational training, or is it only a certain class of men? Mr. NALL. Only those who are going to be discharged on an S. C. D., and they are sent to the Vocational Board's office. This sometimes happens. If it is not convenient for those men to come to the office, in cases where we have double amputation cases, we go to the ward, making contact with the men there; but otherwise they are sent to the office. The CHAIRMAN. What I am leading up to is, is it possible for a man to be discharged without having been surveyed, a man who is eligible for training, in order to have it? Mr. NALL. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. That is possible? Mr. NALL. That is sometimes done. The CHAIRMAN. You were here a moment ago when I was speaking of these two men? Mr. NALL. I had a man get by me last week, a man by the name of Russo. When I was furnished the list of men who were to be discharged on S. C. D. and I took up this list, I found that this man, Russo, had not been surveyed. I phoned him the first thing that morning to his ward and asked him if he would come over, and he said he would. About noon I phoned him again, and he said he would come in the afternoon. In the afternoon I went to see him, and he said, "I am busy packing up and getting ready to get out of here, but I will see you in the morning at 9 o'clock." I never did make contact with him. The CHAIRMAN. Was he a man with a limb off? Mr. NALL. I do not remember his disability. The CHAIRMAN. I am inclined to think that is the name of one of the boys that I was introduced to. Mr. NALL. I do not remember his first name, but his last name is Russo. The CHAIRMAN. Whose fault is it, Mr. Nall, when these boys get away from you? Mr. BRAHAM. Pardon me, sir. I know George Russo. I have known him for a long time. He is an old ex-prize fighter in Newark, N. J. I have talked with him a dozen times about his future training. If George left without survey, it was because he wanted to. He did not know what he wanted to do, and thinks he will decide some time later. The CHAIRMAN. I am rather of the opinion that that was the name. I thought it was Russell. Mr. BRAHAM. A broad, dark-faced, stocky sort of fellow? The CHAIRMAN. Yes; very muscular looking. Mr. BRAHAM. With a leg amputated? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Mr. BRAHAM. He was one who held up his discharge because he did not want to sign it. He held it up for six months. The CHAIRMAN. Well, the hope was that nobody would get out of the hospital, where we had advisers located, without having a survey, so we would know what to do with him, and if there is any likelihood of many of those cases, it ought to be corrected. Mr. NALL. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. If it is because you do not have men enough to do the work we ought to supply the men, because men who come out in the way this man did and talk not only to the public but to Members of Congress, they impress those who hear them that something is wrong, and they leave a very bad impression, not only of the work but of those responsible for having the work done, including Con gress. Mr. NALL. I do not believe there is a man in that hospital out there who does not know about the Federal Board. I talk with the men a good deal, and I have put that question to them: "Is there anybody in your ward who has not heard of the Federal Board and does not know that we have an office here?" And they have said, "No; I do not think there is a man in the crowd but what knows it." There might be some men who might not hear of it, but I do not see how it is possible to be out there and not hear of it. The CHAIRMAN. What is necessary for you to be permitted to survey a man? Is there a permission that you have to get from the military authorities? Mr. NALL. Well, no. Rather than getting permission, the military authorities really assist in sending the men to me. The CHAIRMAN. There is no conflict there, then, between the two, the civil authority and the military? Mr. NALL. Not since I have been there, that I have ever known of. The medical staff there has been very kind indeed in furnishing the medical data and copies of discharged. I never met a more courteous bunch of men in my life than the officials out there at Walter Reed. The CHAIRMAN. There is cooperation? Mr. NALL. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Is there any of what we call prevocational training carried on in the hospital, which we used to call curative or bedside training? Mr. NALL. Yes; if you term that work that is done by the occupational therapy department there prevocational training. The CHAIRMAN. That is done under the direction of the military authorities? Mr. NALL. Yes, sir. I can give an illustration of that. Sometime ago a young man came up for survey, and he was undecided as to what line of work he would like to follow. His education was limited, and I sent him down to the acetylene welding shop. I had just checked up on his survey, and I told him to go down there and stay a week or 10 days, and then come back and we would finish that survey. When he came back he was delighted with that line of work, and we have recommended that line of work for him. The CHAIRMAN. The law does not presume to force anybody to take training; it is always voluntary. What is the attitude of the boys in the hospitals toward training? Mr. NALL. The majority of them want training. The CHAIRMAN. Do you find some who do not want it? Mr. NALL. I have found a very few who did not want training. I think they absolutely want training, beyond the shadow of a doubt. in the majority of cases. There are some who have said they do not want any training, but very few. The CHAIRMAN. When you find a person like that, what is the attitude toward him? Mr. NALL. Well, it is like this: I try to explain to that boy that it is to his advantage to take the training, and I have used this illustration in talking to him: That it is like the old story about taking a horse down to the brook to drink. The water is there for him, but if he does not drink he does not have to; there is nothing compulsory about it. The difference in this case is that the Federal Board is bringing the brook up to the man to drink, and if he wants it, all right; if he does not, there is nothing compulsory about it. We can not make him take it. (The witness was thereupon excused.) The CHAIRMAN. The committee will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock to-morrow. (Whereupon, the committee adjourned until Tuesday, May 11, 1920, at 10 o'clock a. m.) |