The CHAIRMAN. What was your salary?

Mr. BRUNSON. $60 per week.

The CHAIRMAN. Was that amount of $60 per week the amount you were paid for the weeks you worked, or was that the rate for the year? Mr. BRUNSON. I was employed on full time.

The CHAIRMAN. That would make over $3,000 a year?

Mr. BRUNSON. Yes, sir; my income was larger than that $60 per week.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your salary now?

Mr. BRUNSON. $4,000 per annum.

The CHAIRMAN. What was your salary when you came to the board?

Mr. BRUNSON. $3,500.

The CHAIRMAN. Prior to your employment by this federation that you spoke of, or those five organizations, what had you been doing! Mr. BRUNSON. I was employed by the Terminal Railroad Association, of St. Louis, Mo., in the mechanical department, in the capacity of machinist.

The CHAIRMAN. In which you were actually working in the capacity of a machinist?

Mr. BRUNSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How long had you been doing that?
Mr. BRUNSON. Do you mean with the Terminal Co.?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. BRUNSON. For some seven years.

The CHAIRMAN. How long were you with the federation, or in their employment?

Mr. BRUNSON. Altogether I was with the federation approximately eight years. I was not always on full pay. I had a contingent salary until about 1917. In the first part of that year I went on full salary.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Brunson, will you give us a statement of the importance of the work of placement? In other words, we have several divisions of work, and one of them is the Placement Division. How do you look upon that?

Mr. BRUNSON. In my personal judgment, and I think it is generally supported, the placement work is the test of the whole rehabilitation idea. It is the only practical way to determine whether a man has received any material benefit from his training. To sum up my opinion in a few words, I might say that we are not placing any men in employment, but they are being trained into employment. That is, if a man takes the major portion of his training in an institution, at the completion of that training, he is still given a period during which time he becomes adjusted to the actual requirements of the specific jobs that he is to carry on as a producer or worker.

The CHAIRMAN. There has been some criticism voiced of the Place ment Division as being a mere job-hunting division. I have heard that criticism, and I have heard it within the last half-dozen daysnot in connection with this investigation, but in connection with other people who have been discussing that general phase of this work, the contention being that the work should not be a job-hunting work. Your statement was that you are not placing people in employment, but that you are training people into employment, and that

might be some sort of answer to that general criticism that I heard sometime ago. On the other hand, there has been, at least, a suspicion in the minds of some members of the committee that there has been some discrimination in the placement of men, and that that part of the work is likely to be under the domination, not so much of the Government, as under the rules of some federation of labor. What can you say about that criticism?

Mr. BRUNSON. The inference that is drawn from the fact that certain men who are engaged in the placement work who have been formerly affiliated with labor unions is, I think, a violent assumption. There is, in my judgment, no more reason to believe that such an influence would obtain than there is to believe that I personally, or any of the others similarly situated, would be influenced by religious or other social affiliations. Answering more directly your question, I can assure you that no influence of that kind has been so exerted as to come to my notice. I would point out, also, that our organization is so builded that it would not be possible for the independent judgment of any one man, or any one group of men in the organization, to control the policy to that extent, even if they should desire to do so.

The CHAIRMAN. That inference might grow out of two angles, one being that a person who had been affiliated with such associations for a long time would naturally be sympathetic with whatever ruling they might have made on that general principle, and the other is that there might be some rule of the federation itself that the superintendent would not want to violate, and it might cause him to hesitate to be free in putting into operation his own independent judgment, for fear that he might run counter to some rule that he would think it important to observe if he were doing work wholly within the federation. That, I think, would be a justifiable suspicion, at least, and I should like to have you state to the committee whether your affiliation with, or your former employment by those five federations, has ever influenced you to a degree that you would discriminate for or against a soldier who might or might not have been heretofore in any way affiliated with any federation or labor organization?

Mr. BRUNSON. It would not. labor has instilled in me a very economic welfare of all workers, organized or unorganized.

My association with organized sincere and deep interest in the irrespective of whether they are

The CHAIRMAN. So that, in the placement of the men after they have been trained, the orders of labor associations have not influenced you against what you might think would be the best interest of the man trained?

Mr. BRUNSON. Not in the least. That affiliation has had no more influence in my work than has my connection with the Masonic fraternity or the Missouri Bar Association, or, so far as that is concerned, with the American Automobile Association.

The CHAIRMAN. Was there any pressure brought to bear upon the board in your selection by the influence of labor organizations? Mr. BRUNSON. None whatever; positively none. If there had

been, I am sure I would have know it, and I know of none.

The CHAIRMAN: What success have you had, Mr. Brunson, in locating the men who have been trained?

Mr. BRUNSON. We have experienced no difficulty in placing all the men who have been trained. I mean that broad statement to take into consideration the fact that we are handling a mine-run of humanity, and that there might be cases here and there that have given us considerable concern, and that we have shifted for a number of times in order to locate properly, but my statement that we have had no difficulty in placing all the men who have been suitably trained is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you find some difficulty due to the fact that some industries do not want the men-do you find that situation anywhere?

Mr. BRUNSON. We have found some local groups in industry, both of employers in certain instances and of labor groups in others, who did not have a full appreciation of the character of this problem, and who have not cooperated to the fullest extent. However, that would not apply nationally, either to any class of employees or to any labor organizations.

The CHAIRMAN. The fact that a group of labor men in some local industry would be adverse to the employment of a soldier is not to be interpreted as indicating that that labor group represents a principle, or that they do not want this man to come in because his introduction might violate a principle of the labor organization? Mr. BRUNSON. It should not be so interpreted as the policy of the larger groups.

The CHAIRMAN. There is one question that comes to my mind, and I want you to be frank in your answer: There might be a closed shop here, and your man that you have trained might not be a member of the union: Now, what would be your attitude in offering an opportunity to that person in this employment?

Mr. BRUNSON. Interpreting the term "closed shop," as you are using it, I assume that it means a shop in which an agreement is in existence between the employers and the employees, providing that none other than members of a particular organization shall be employed?

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I mean.

Mr. BRUNSON. Under those circumstances, we have approached the employers and the employees in council, if it is possible to do so, and quite usually it is, because they are very anxious to preserve the provisions of their agreements, and we have under those circumstances encountered no difficulty in having the point waived. We have encountered very little difficulty in that direction because there are very few closed shop agreements in the line that we have placed men in thus far. The closed shop lines are those in which, as a general proposition, a longer period of training is necessary, and we have matured very few men for them. I refer to such lines as the printers, for instance.

The CHAIRMAN. So that you have not had any great difficulty in that line?

Mr. BRUNSON. No great difficulty in any of those directions. We have probably had an instance here and there where those matters have come up locally, but they are very readily adjusted.

Mr. REED. Now, with reference to your employment here in St. Louis, dealing with the shop and mill federation employees, just what was the character of your work at that time?

Mr. BRUNSON. I only had to do with the relations of those employees with the Terminal Railroad Association, as far as their employment problems were directly concerned. In an advisory capacity had some larger work.

Mr. REED. Would you mind explaining very briefly to the committee the character of the advice that you were called upon to give im that work?

Mr. BRUNSON. All negotiations with the employers affecting working conditions, rates of pay, and grievances of any character, were handled through me, or by my advice, first, by the various committees representing the various crafts involved, because there were several crafts involved, and after failure to make adjustments in any of those matters, they were referred to me. I maintained an office in St. Louis.

Mr. REED. Were you representing the manufacturers or the employees?

Mr. BRUNSON. The employees, or the five trades mentioned previously.

Mr. REED. Now, did you go into the welfare phase of the work at all, or study the conditions under which the men were living?

Mr. BRUNSON. The living conditions entered into it to some extent, but the conditions of employment were more directly involved, such as the sanitary conditions in the shop, for instance.

Mr. REED. Did it have anything to do with the wage scale?

Mr. BRUNSON. Entirely; that was a very important phase.
Mr. REED. That was the major portion of your field?

Mr. BRUNSON. Yes, sir; wages, working conditions, and the adjustment of any matters that would come up under the existing agree

ments.

Mr. REED. What is your position now with the Federation of Labor?

Mr. BRUNSON. None whatever.

Mr. REED. Then, you severed all connection with them when you took up this work is that the idea?

Mr. BRUNSON. Yes, sir. I had no connection with the American Federation of Labor direct. I was employed by a local group who furnished the funds for the payment of my salary, and no funds came from the American Federation of Labor.

Mr. REED. Am I correct in drawing the inference from your statement that you are an attorney at law?

Mr. BRUNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. REED. For how many years have you been an attorney?

Mr. BRUNSON. Since 1917.

Mr. REED. Have you any connection with any legal firm in St. Louis?

Mr. BRUNSON. None.

Mr. REED. Or are you retained by any organization of any kind or character?

Mr. BRUNSON. None whatever. I have no employment except this with the Federal Board, and receive no remuneration from any other

source.

Mr. REED. Now, this may be a little outside of the usual proposition, but sometime ago the soldiers at Walter Reed Hospital organ

ized some voluntary association to find employment for crippled men: Do you know anything about that organization?

Mr. BRUNSON. No, sir.

Mr. REED. I understand that they are entirely enthusiastic over the results that they are getting out there, but I did not know whether your department was cooperating with them, or not.

Mr. BRUNSON. No, sir; we have no independent cooperation. They may be in very close cooperation with our district No. 4 office in Baltimore, of which there is a branch office established here in Washington.

Mr. REED. They are forming these organizations in hospitals all around throughout the country, or they are forming little associations with a central organization here, and I did not know but what you might be cooperating with them. I understand that they are placing a great many crippled soldiers.

Mr. BRUNSON. Many of those organizations of which you speak, and that are springing up in various parts of the country in hospitals, are in touch with our district offices throughout the country. As to this particular one you refer to, I am not in a position to say whether, or not, they are in cooperation with us.

Mr. REED. So far as you know, there would be nothing in the policy of your office to prevent your cooperating with them, if they asked for it?

Mr. BRUNSON. Nothing whatsoever; we are cooperating with every organization or collection of individuals that we find the opportunity to cooperate with, and that will be of advantage to the soldiers.

Mr. REED. That brings me right down to this point: To be more specific, have you taken up this matter of securing employment for these trained men through the Manufacturers' Association?

Mr. BRUNSON. The matter has been laid before the Manufacturers' Association, at the very inception of the work, and some two or three times since we have called it to their attention, in what is known as miscellaneous No. 38, or that is the way we designate it. It was gotten out and sent to national association manufacturers. Mr. REED. Are they cooperating with you?

Mr. BRUNSON. They are cooperating. As a result of the submission of this matter, particular concerns are cooperating, and we have received a great many letters expressing a desire to further cooperate with us.

Mr. REED. Just how are they cooperating?

Mr. BRUNSON. As an illustration, the General Electric Co. went to considerable expense to make a survey of their entire works to develop and show the possibilities for the employment of disabled men and their training, and they made that survey available to us without any cost to the Government or the board.

Mr. REED. That was in their own organization?

Mr. BRUNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. REED. Have any other industries done that?

For in

Mr. BRUNSON. There have been some others; yes, sir. stance, the Goodyear Tire Co. Just offhand, I might not be able to mention with accuracy any more, but very nearly all the larger concerns have to some degree been more or less in cooperation.

Mr. REED. Have you taken it up with the chambers of commerce in towns of reasonable size throughout the country?