Mr. HOLDER. He passed the civil service examination and was appointed. Mr. BLANTON. Oh, well, was he not recommended by one of the New York Congressmen there? Mr. HOLDER. I never heard of that. Mr. BLANTON. Who is a very prominent member Mr. HOLDER. I never heard of that, but I do know this, that I got some information from a draftsman employed in the Portsmouth (Va.) Navy Yard, which is ordinarily known as the Norfolk Navy Yard, that Mr. Wheeler was an applicant, and if his papers were to come to me from the Civil Service Commission, whether I would be willing to sign them with the information that he would convey and that I happen to know something of Mr. Wheeler personally. Mr. BLANTON. He being a machinist, and being a member of organization, Mr. HOLDER. He being a machinist and a man that had your Mr. BLANTON (interposing). Do you know how much salary he is getting? Mr. HOLDER. I am not sure, but I think he was getting twenty-four or twenty-five hundred dollars. Mr. BLANTON. Do you know what Mr. Wheeler's salary is? Mr. HOLDER. I think I said that I believe it is about twenty-four · or twenty-five hundred dollars. Mr. BLANTON. $2,600. Mr. HOLDER. $2,600? Mr. BLANTON. Yes. You are not familiar with the fact that there are appointments made upon recommendation, say, of Members of Congress? Mr. HOLDER. I would like to give you a Mr. BLANTON (interposing). Has any appointment ever been made upon recommendation, say, for instance, of Mr. Donovan, of New York, a Member of Congress and a member of this committee? Mr. HOLDER. Not to my personal knowledge. Mr. BLANTON. Now, let me direct your attention to four particular ones and let you answer, say, James A. Fahy, Mr. Walter Wheeler, Mr. O'Connell or O'Connor, I am not sure which, but it is one of those names, and Mr. McAuliffe, are you prepared to say that none of those appointments were made upon recommendation of the New York Member whom I have mentioned? Mr. HOLDER. I am prepared to say that I never heard such an intimation before. Mr. BLANTON. Now, are you acquainted with Mr. Robert G. Munroe? Mr. HOLDER. No, sir; I never heard the name. Mr. BLANTON. Never heard the name? Mr. HOLDER. Never heard the name before. Mr. BLANTON. You do not know anything about him? Mr. HOLDER. No, sir. Mr. BLANTON. Are you acquainted with Mr. William A. Clark? Mr. HOLDER. The gentleman who testified here as the district. Vocational officer? Mr. BLANTON. Yes. Mr. HOLDER. Yes; I know Mr. Clark. Mr. BLANTON. Do you know his affiliation with labor organizations? Mr. HOLDER. I do not think he has any. Mr. BLANTON. Are you sure? Mr. HOLDER. No, sir. Mr. BLANTON. Do you know what salary he got? Mr. HOLDER. He is getting $3,600, but has been promoted to $4,000; but he has never received the $4,000 yet. Mr. BLANTON. But he has been promoted to that? Mr. HOLDER. And will get it. Mr. BLANTON. And it will date from when? Mr. HOLDER. He will get it if I can get it for him. Mr. BLANTON. And it will date from when? Mr. HOLDER. It will date from-really, I can not give you the date. Mr. BLANTON. Do you know what salary he received just before he entered this service? Mr. HOLDER. No, sir. Mr. BLANTON. You do not know? Mr. HOLDER. No, sir; I do not. He testified he was in France, and he came here from the service he was rendering in France. Mr. BLANTON. And you do not know what salary he got? Mr. BLANTON. If he was getting only $1,800 before he entered the service of your board, it would not make any difference to you as to what you should pay him; that would have no bearing on the salary you should fix for him? Mr. HOLDER. I would have to be guided, of course, by the information that came with his application and with his accomplishments and experiences. Mr. BLANTON. Are you acquainted with Mr. Farwell? Mr. HOLDER. Slightly. Mr. BLANTON. Is he connected with any union labor organization? Mr. HOLDER. I do not think so. Mr. BLANTON. What salary has he been paid? Mr. HOLDER. I think Mr. Farwell was getting $3,500 when he was working in the Boston office and I believe that he was promoted to $4,000 when he accepted the position of district vocational officer in August or September, 1919, of the New York office. Mr. BLANTON. Now, is it not a fact, Mr. Holder, that practically all of these men I have mentioned were not residents of the districts in which they were appointed as placement officers. Mr. HOLDER. I am not sure as to that and I do not know whether that would be always kept in mind as a guiding principle. Where all other things would be equal, I believe they would be given the preference. Mr. BLANTON. You, of course, know what a lobbyist is, do you not? Mr. HOLDER. Well I was presumed to be one myself. Mr. BLANTON. You have been a paid lobbyist of the American Federation of Labor, have you not? Mr. HOLDER. To call it by a more euphonious title, sir, legislative representative. Mr. BLANTON. But to call it by its real, true, genuine cognomen, it is a lobbyist, is it not? Mr. HOLDER. Yes, sir. Mr. BLANTON. You are a member of the faculty of what is known. as the Trade Union College, are you not? Mr. HOLDER. I do not know whether I am a member or not. I have given them $2 for their work, but whether that gives me a membership or not, I do not know.. Mr. BLANTON. Well, there is such an organization known as the Trade Union College, is there not? Mr. HOLDER. There are several local organizations of that kind in the United States recently organized. There is one here in Washington and the president of it, or the chairman, is Mr. Archie E. Luther. Mr. BLANTON. Then you disclaim being a member of the faculty of that college? Mr. HOLDER. I do not want to put it quite so harshly as disclaiming it, but I have never received notification, either orally or by written word, that I had been so recognized. Mr. BLANTON. Mr. Holder, you have heard the evidence given here by two different witnesses in your presence, who have been your employees, to the effect that with a trade unionist; that is, a member of a trade union, who believes in true unionism, that where members of the union strike and refuse to work and other employees come in and take their places, that to members of trade unions those employees are commonly designated as "scabs." You heard that testimony, did you not? Mr. HOLDER. I heard all of that; yes, sir. Mr. BLANTON. That is the fact, is it not? Mr. HOLDER. What is a fact-the fact that I heard it? Mr. BLANTON. That they are designated as "scabs" when they take their places. Mr. HOLDER. That is the universal term although some trades have Mr. BLANTON (interposing). That is all. Mr. HOLDER (continuing). Different terms. Mr. BLANTON. Mr. Holder, will you please post yourself on these matters so that within the next week some time, whenever you get posted, you can let the committee know so I can get some definite information about this business. Mr. HOLDER. I have that information already prepared and ready to give you. Mr. BLANTON. I wish you would get the information about the salaries of these various men so that you can tell this committee just exactly how many members of your machinist organization, the same organization to which you belong Mr. HOLDER. Yes. Mr. BLANTON. Have been employed by the board. Mr. HOLDER. Certainly. Mr. BLANTON. And exactly how many other members of other trade organizations have been employed and the salaries that each have been paid, so that we can get some definite information about your own business. Will you do that? H Mr. HOLDER. I should be very much disappointed, Judge Blanton, if you did not give me the opportunity to give you that complete information in the most candid way possible. Mr. BLANTON. And I hope you will. Mr. HOLDER. And I have it all prepared, and if I had dreamed that you were going to call on me this morning I would have brought it with me, but please do not think for one moment that when I say I do not know, I am trying to evade or to ignore your questions. We believe, sir Mr. BLANTON (interposing). Mr. Holder Mr. HOLDER. Please excuse me and let me give you a complete answer. Mr. BLANTON. That is all I care about, Mr. Chairman. Mr. HOLDER. We do not believe in concealing anything of the work of this board of which we have knowledge, and we absolutely refuse to go on parade, and I, as one member of the board, stand here self-reliant as to the work we have done and the part I have played in it myself and we want this committee, every individual member of it, to know first hand, from our own lips, exactly what we have done and what we are trying to do and what we hope to do. We want to win the confidence of this committee by a candid, safe, free, fair, courageous, self-reliant expression. Mr. BLANTON. Well, I will ask you Mr. HOLDER (continuing). Now, I do not know how a man can express himself more fairly or more fearlessly than that. Mr. BLANTON. Well, I will ask the committee later on Mr. HOLDER. And if you will kindly put every question to me in the most detailed form, I shall consider it a great big compliment. Mr. BLANTON. Whenever you are ready, I will ask the committee later in the week, or next week to call you. Mr. HOLDER. All right, sir. Mr. TOWNER. You will be called later, Mr. Holder. Mr. Munroe, you may take the stand." STATEMENT OF MR. JAMES P. MUNROE, VICE CHAIRMAN, FEDERAL BOARD FOR VOCATIONAL EDUCATION. (The witness was duly sworn by the acting chairman.) Mr. TOWNER. Mr. Munroe, you are a member of the Federal Board for Vocational Education? Mr. MUNROE. Yes, sir. Mr. TOWNER. And have been since the organization of the board? Mr. MUNROE. Yes, sir; I was appointed in July, of 1917 by the President. Mr. TOWNER. Do you prefer to make a preliminary statement without interrogatories, first? Mr. MUNROE. I would like to do that, sir. Mr. TOWNER. We will be very glad, indeed, to have it. Mr. MUNROE. Of course, we are always glad to appear before a committee of Congress and give an account of our work, and in view of the misrepresentations that have been going around about the work, I would ask, Mr. Chairman, that I be allowed to make a rather full statements as to just what our accomplishments are to this time. 4661-20-VOL 2- -2 First, in regard to the statements that have been made more than once that we are very much behind in our work; and that have been bolstered up by bringing witnesses who testified in most cases that they knew nothing about the work since a year or a year and a half ago. Now, of course, as I shall show later, the work was at that time behind, for reasons which I will make plain. As to our present situation, permit me to read the statistics given to me by the superintendent of records and returns as of March 27, about a month ago. On this date registration in the districts reached a total of 206,666 cases. Mr. TOWNER. Mr. Munroe, in giving these figures, will you be careful to give them slowly? Mr. MUNROE. Yes, sir. Mr. TOWNER. The figures themselves are very easily misunderstood, and in order that the reporter may get the figures definitely in the record so that they will not have to be afterward corrected, I suggest you make those statements slowly. Mr. MUNROE. I thank you for the suggestion. Two hundred and six thousand six hundred and sixty-six cases. Contact was established with 174,196 men, or 84.2 per cent of the entire registration; 141,953, or 81.5 per cent of the contacts established have been surveyed by vocational advisers; 58,099 men had been approved as eligible for training, and of this number 33,686 have already entered training, 4,446 of whom began their courses during the month of March, an increase of 69 per cent ceding month. The completions and discontinuances total 3,052, leaving the net number of men actually in training as 30,695 on this date; that is, March 27. Of these, 28,800 were included under section 2, 1,834 under section 3, 69 under section 6 of the act, and 61 in public Health hospitals under our agreement with the Public Health Service, by which we are giving training to men with tuberculosis under medical advice. over The above men are enrolled in 308 courses given at 1,493 institutions and 4,051 commercial and industrial establishments. The percentage of enrollment in courses is as follows: In trade and industrial group, 31.7 per cent; 26 per cent in the business and commercial group: 14.9 per cent in the prevocational group; that is preliminary studies; 13.9 per cent in the professional group; and 13.5 per cent in the agricultural group. This list which I will not burden the record by putting in is a complete list of the establishments, schools, and so on in which men are in training. That was on March 27. As shown by these weekly reports handed into us-the last report being April 24 during that week 1,068 men had gone into training, so that the total number of men who are in training or have been in training is at least 38,000 or 39,000 men. Therefore, gentlemen, as shown by these figures and by the fact that in the last month we have probably got up to at least 90 per cent of contacts with the men and arranged their courses and so on, the work is practically done so far as determining the eligibility of the men and arranging for their courses. There remain, of course, two very serious problems, the first being that of getting the men who have been allowed training, 20,000 or |