Senator WHITE. He was also a member, may I add, Mr. Chairman, of the delegation which went to London in 1929.

The CHAIRMAN. We will be very glad to hear from you now, Captain Smith.

STATEMENT OF H. GERRISH SMITH, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF AMERICAN SHIPBUILDERS

Mr. SMITH. Mr. Chairman, I am appearing as a member of the technical committee, and not on behalf of the National Shipbuilders at this time.

I think that Captain Joyce was confronted with one of the most. difficult jobs that could be handed to anybody when he was asked to draft this piece of legislation, which really covers, or is intended to cover, every feature of safety involved in the construction of a ship, from keel to truck.

The problem comes pretty nearly being the proposition of being asked to write a specification that will cover all those factors involved in securing what we all want to secure, and that is the highest practicable degree of safety on American ships.

I think the committee should have clearly in mind, as was brought out by Captain Joyce, that our work related only to titles I to IX, inclusive, of the proposed bill. The matters covered from page 117 on to the end of the bill were not matters that were in any way considered by the committee, except in a broad way.

The bill, again, as is well known to the committee, is not a product of the technical committee which wrote the rules. It is aimed, undoubtedly, however, to cover the requirements of the rules.

The CHAIRMAN. I made that statement, Captain, at the beginning, I think before you came in. I made the statement that this bill was not in any sense to be considered as a recommendation from the entire committee. It was the attempt to write, in the form of a bill, what the committee had brought forth in its deliberations.

Mr. SMITH. The activities of the committee, and the amount of time spent in the consideration of the problem, have also been very clearly explained by you and by Captain Joyce. I, as one of the members of the committee, signed the report, and I want to see what is in that report a matter of practice in the building and inspection of our ships, as far as it is practicable to do so.

I think that what your committee is confronted with, sir, is how to accomplish practically what you want to accomplish, under the report of this committee. I thought, at first, that it might be accomplished by this piece of legislation with some changes. I am very doubtful, for the moment, whether this is the best way of accomplishing it.

I think you will be interested to know, as a report from a shipbuilder, that the objects of the committee's report are all being largely accomplished not only by shipbuilders but by the naval architects in the design of passenger ships which are now under contemplation, so that the main purpose of the bill is really accomplished.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you speaking alone of our country, but of other countries, too? Have these views, so far as you know, been accepted abroad?

Mr. SMITH. I think not. I am speaking only for our own country, the designs of ships that are prepared in the United States.

The thought that is primarily in my mind is this, that if you attempt to put too much into legislation you may deter rather than help the development of safety of life at sea. A great many of the matters covered in this bill reported to you by Captain Joyce and Admiral Rock are existing practice, with only comparatively minor modifications to bring them up to date. The one outstanding chapter is the one on fireproof and fire-resisting construction. That is a great advance over anything that has ever been projected before.

I get somewhat conflicting views from shipbuilders as to its cost and weight, the most serious factor of which, for the moment, is weight, which you must take care of, as you cannot have too much top-hamper weight. But they all believe, so far as I can now ascertain, that within a reasonable time, and within the time, certainly, set by the report of the committee, it will be practicable to work with substantially fireproof construction satisfactorily, believing that the cost will not be much more, and that the weight can be adequately compensated for in some way.

The Catherine, as reported, is one of the first examples. The designs that are now pending, and contracts which it is anticipated will be placed in the near future, are going to come pretty close to the January 1, 1940, requirement.

The alternative was put into our committee report to take care of conditions that might arise until there were suitable materials, in sufficient numbers and types, that could be worked into the designs to meet the absolutely fireproof construction.

I am somewhat fearful-in fact, I am very fearful-in reading this report very carefully, as to the applicability of some of the provisions when you come down to the smaller sizes of ships. In that respect the bill seems to me to go a long way beyond what we really considered in the committee.

You must appreciate the fact that types of ships and sizes of ships have their effect in the application of any particular rule; and, as you get down to the smaller sizes, it is wholly impossible to build a ship that will meet the conditions prescribed for a ship of larger size. I think, in that connection, that a study of the committee's requirements as applicable to the different types is necessary.

Senator VANDENBERG. What do you call a small ship?

Mr. SMITH. They are specified here as low as 50 to 100 tons. That will get down to ships that are 80 or 90 feet long, getting down to tugboats, in some cases, and getting down to ships of very small size. The CHAIRMAN. Are you familiar with the change that has been made on page 4?

Mr. SMITH. I am not familiar with any change made in it, sir.
Captain JOYCE. There are no changes.

The CHAIRMAN. It is merely brought together in one place.
Captain JOYCE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN (reading):

The requirements of this Act shall apply, unless otherwise specified, to any new vessel of the United States falling in groups 1, 2, or 3, which is of 100 gross tons or over, and to any new vessel of the United States falling in groups 4 or 5 which is of 50 gross tons or over. The requirements of this Act shall be applied to all new vessels in all groups to as great an extent as is practicable.

Mr. SMITH. It may be practicable, for some of the rules, to apply them down to the smallest size. There are other rules where, I think, it is very doubtful if it can be done.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that the chief criticism, as related largely to the small ships? Is there any criticism as applied to the larger ships?

Mr. SMITH. The other criticism that I have is as to just what their applicability is going to be to cargo ships, or general cargo carriers. That relates not only to general cargo ships but to oil tankers. I think in both those groups it must be very clear, in any piece of legislation, as to how far these general rules which are built around passenger ships are going to apply to ships of that type.

Senator WHITE. I should like to get clear in my mind just the significance of your comments, Mr. Smith. Are you indicating that you are in disagreement with some of the rules that the committee, as a whole, has agreed upon?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I have a recommendation in my mind that I should like to make.

Senator WHITE. Do you think, then, that the legislation, in its terms, modifies the rules, or does not apply the rules in the way the rules are intended to be applied?

Mr. SMITH. Oh, yes. I think it modifies them a great deal, in many spots.

Senator WHITE. That is what I wanted to get at. That is, your complaint is not of the rules but your suggestion is that theMr. SMITH. Not at all.

Senator WHITE. Your suggestion is that the legislation which has been drafted diverges from the rules?

Mr. SMITH. Exactly; I am a party to the rules, and I am 100 percent behind them. I want to see them carried into effect, but I would like to see them approached in the most practicable way, and in a way that will probably bring about compliance with those rules.

Senator WHITE. Are you prepared to indicate to us the respects in which you think the legislation points a departure from the rules? Mr. SMITH. I had a copy of the report and, at odd times, I have spent much time on it.

Senator WHITE. If you are not able to do it now, you can do it later.

Mr. SMITH. I have marked 500 spots in the copy of the report, where I think it has been changed, and that I will turn over to the committee.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you said, Mr. Smith, that you were going to make a suggestion.

Mr. SMITH. My suggestion would be this, sir: This report of the committee is a Senate document, as I understand.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SMITH. Is it not practical in some way to pass, for the time, simply a piece of enabling legislation, that it is the wish of Congress that the report of that committee should be incorporated into rules and regulations just as fast as possible, without passing detailed legislation touching upon various features of the rules?

Senator WHITE. You want to leave to the Bureau of Marine Inspection the discretion as to when and to what extent they will make the rules applicable?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I would have them made applicable in every degree found possible under the committee's report. For one, I am satisfied, of course, that we must have made a good many minor errors that will be found in applying these rules to ships of various types.

Senator WHITE. Then you would like to have us simply draft a piece of legislation making reference to this report, and declaring that the rules therein set forth should be the rules to be enforced by the Bureau of Marine Inspection and Navigation?

Mr. SMITH. Directing them to report back from time to time such changes as they find necessary in the committee's report, if they find that they are not applicable to ships of certain types and certain sizes.

Senator WHITE. But, in the first instance, you would have us legislate into effect the rules which you have recommended?

Mr. SMITH. I think probably that is the best thing to do. Senator WHITE. And then authorize modifications of them from time to time, either in the discretion of the Bureau of Marine Inspection and Navigation, or require the Bureau of Marine Inspection and Navigation to submit recommendations to Congress from time to time, with those recommendations to be made a matter of law?

Mr. SMITH. That is what I have in mind, although I think you will find that it is a fact that the Bureau of Marine Inspection and Navigation is now following those rules almost 100 percent, all the way through.

The CHAIRMAN. You will recall, Mr. Smith, in our conversation the other day, I told you that Senator White had suggested something along the line of what you have in mind, and we have attempted to incorporate that on page 6, where the language, as changed, would read as follows:

The Bureau of Marine Inspection and Navigation shall, for the administration and enforcement of this Act, promulgate, after approval by the Secretary of Commerce, detailed rules and regulations covering the design, construction, maintenance, and inspection of all vessels. These detailed rules and regulations—

and this is the new language [reading]

shall, with the adoption of this Act, be those set forth in Senate Report No. 184,"

which is this report [reading]

Seventh-fifth Congress, first session, and thereafter they shall be kept up to date and shall be completely reviewed and revised at least once every five years.

Mr. SMITH. Would that give ample elasticity, as you proceed from day to day?

The CHAIRMAN. Now we come to the rest of it [reading]:

Provided, That each year, at the beginning of the session, the Bureau, through the Secretary of Commerce, shall report to the Congress whether or not any new legislation is required better to insure the safety of life at sea. If any new legislation is necessary, the Bureau shall submit definite recommendations for it to the Congress through the Secretary of Commerce.

I understand this to mean that with the passage of the act—if it ever does pass these rules shall be the ones in effect, but that there shall be elasticity, so that the Bureau of Marine Inspection and Naviga

tion may make any changes which are necessary in order to meet the emergencies or problems which arise in the operation.

Senator VANDENBERG. I do not see where you get that out of the language you read.

Senator WHITE. I have not gone over that language.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator White told me, at the time, that he was not satisfied with the language, but that is what you had in mind, and what we had in mind.

Senator VANDENBERG. It leaves the bill just as mandatory as ever, as I read it.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean in the beginning?

Senator VANDENBERG. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. I take it, Mr. Smith, that what you want to do is to promulgate these rules, but, from the very beginning, leave it to the Bureau of Marine Inspection and Navigation to make such necessary changes

Mr. SMITH. I think, if you do not do it, sir, you are going to find all kinds of conflict if you attempt to write in each and every chapter in detail, as has been done in the bill.

The CHAIRMAN. If this language could be corrected to cover the thing you have in mind, then the rest of the language would not be offensive?

Mr. SMITH. I think two pages of language would cover the whole bill, from my point of view, somewhat along the line suggested.

Senator WHITE. You feel that if by some language we gave this legislative sanction and made these the authorized rules of the Bureau of Marine Inspection and Navigation, there would not be any necessity for the balance of this legislation?

Mr. SMITH. That is exactly it.

Senator WHITE. So far as is relates to the matters covered by the rules?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Senator WHITE. But you would have to give to the Bureau of Marine Inspection and Navigation, I take it, authority to revise those rules from time to time as the development in the shipbuilding art came and as conditions required.

Mr. SMITH. This, for the moment, is the report of a committee. I would go a step further. Each chapter must be promulgated as rules and regulations.

Senator WHITE. Surely.

Mr. SMITH. From a study of the report as submitted

The CHAIRMAN. Your point is this, is it not-I think I got that idea as we talked the other day-that by a brief bill we could promulgate those rules?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And then that we could give immediate elasticity in the manner you have suggested?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you prepare such a measure?

Mr. SMITH. No; I did not. It is not very easy to prepare. Well, I think it is not difficult to prepare.

Senator WHITE. I should not think that would be a difficult task. if that is what the committee wants done. I think it could be done that way.