indirectly because they form the basis of opinion from universities and elsewhere of witnesses that come back here, if I may say so.

CONGRESSIONAL MEMBERSHIP ACQUAINTANCE WITH AND USE OF HEARINGS AND REPORTS

But more than that, members of this committee are members of other committees such as this one, for example, and the members learn from our own hearings and reports and carry this message to other committees.

Then as far as we can find out, and this is a little indirectly, the reports on hearings are used by members considering issues that involve eonomics. They call up and ask for information that is used from this committee's reports and records as their background for studying issues that do come up before the Congress: taxation, for example, monetary policy, automation, unemployment, the balance of payments, almost every issue has been investigated by the committee and background material collected and prepared and made available to these other committees.

BALANCE-OF-PAYMENTS STATISTICS

Senator PROXMIRE. Let me just give two quick examples because they are freshest in my mind. They do not by any means represent the most important recent contributions of the Joint Economic Committee.

We have just held hearings on the crucial changes in the balance-ofpayments statistics that have been proposed by Mr. Bernstein and his expert Committee that has been working for 2 years now in considering changes our Government should make in presenting our balance of payments.

There is an immensely important policy decision involved. If we side with Mr. Bernstein then it means that the balance-of-payments statistics last year, for example, instead of being $3 billion deficit would show only a $11 billion deficit. This will have profound effects on congressional policies of all kinds but it requires the most careful, honest, accurate, and balanced kind of hearings. We have had Republicans and Democrats in attendance here. We have had very comprehensive hearings. We have had top economists in the country, some of whom agree, some disagree. The administration may have one position but you see if the administration decides Bernstein is right without having congressional public hearings, without having both parties involved, that decision by the administration is far more suspect.

ECONOMIC STATISTICS EXPANSION

The other recent hearings which my Statistics Subcommittee held were for the purpose of considering greatly expanding our economic statistics by conducting a census of the Nation's wealth, our capital stock, to determine our kind of return on our wealth, how much we are earning on it. This will give a much better picture of how the American economy is working than we have ever had before.

To determine whether to spend several million dollars on it or not should take public hearings by some kind of public body. The feeling is that the Joint Economic Committee is the best body to do this. The alternative is administration expenditure without congressional knowledge, approval, or contribution of our know-how.

TESTIMONY OF CHAIRMAN, BOARD OF GOVERNORS, FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM

Senator SALTONSTALL. Is it true that the committee has refused to hear Mr. Martin?

Senator PROXMIRE. Refused to hear Mr. Martin?

Senator SALTONSTALL. Yes; on this subject.

Senator PROXMIRE. On this subject?

Senator SALTONSTALL. Yes; on the balance of payments and the present status of the economy, and so on.

Mr. KNOWLES. This is under consideration with the chairman of the committee. The chairman said he is considering this. We have a very heavy schedule already of hearings.

As you know, the congressional schedule is heavy. The chairman is considering now whether this can be what is asked for is not quite the hearing on the balance of payments, incidentally, it is on the matter of the economic outlook.

The chairman is considering this and a number of other requests. Senator MONRONEY. I am frankly amazed to be spending even what we are spending and to have a man who is in charge of probably the most effective economic mechanism that we have and to find that you are just considering whether you are going to let him appear. In other words, if this is such an exclusive association of scholars that the chairman will not let the head of the Federal Reserve System testify, then I am going to be pretty hard to be persuaded on this kind of appropriation.

In fact, I would be hard to be persuaded on giving you very much of what you are now getting.

Senator PROXMIRE. I would agree with that. Mr. Martin has appeared before our committee many, many times. I don't believe anybody has appeared as much as Mr. Martin has.

Senator MONRONEY. And should.

Senator PROXMIRE. And should appear, that is right. Some of the questions to Mr. Martin have been hostile, as they should be, and some friendly. He has appeared often and always acquitted himself very well. The last time he appeared, which was March of this year, he said, "I expect that if the interest rates are increased you will have me up here," and Mr. Patman said, "You bet your life you will be up here."

I don't think there is any hesitation on the part of the committee.

COMMITTEE CHAIRMANSHIP ROTATION

Senator MONRONEY. Does this go back and forth, the chairmanship of the committee?

Senator PROXMIRE. That is right.

Mr. KNOWLES. Alternate congresses. January 1967 it will come back to the Senate.

Senator MONRONEY. One for each 2 years?

Mr. KNOWLES. For each 2 years, as a rule.

Senator MONRONEY. It goes to the senior member of the joint committee?

Senator PROXMIRE. Senior Member of the House and senior Member of the Senate.

REQUEST BY MINORITY MEMBERS FOR HEARING OF NUMBER OF WITNESSES

Senator MONRONEY. There will be no disposition to keep the head of the Federal Reserve from testifying?

Mr. KNOWLES. We have not refused him a hearing. He has made no request. This is a request from the minority of the committee, Senator Javits and Congressman Tom Curtis, for a hearing not merely at which Mr. Martin will be heard but a number of other people on a broader subject. It is much broader than this. They asked that he be invited among others and based this on his speech.

The chairman is considering this much wider request. If Mr. Martin wanted to appear this would be another matter. We have had him up, practically speaking, I think he has been up virtually every year I have been here and that is since 1950. I don't know of a year since he was appointed that he has not been up before the Joint Economic Committee.

Senator PROXMIRE. He should come after his recent statement.

Mr. KNOWLES. I don't know. The decision is still before the chairman.

Senator SALTONSTALL. I think it is a decision that ought to be made very quickly. I would say that Mr. Martin's statement and his feelings on that subject represent the most important economic question before us today.

Senator PROXMIRE. I would agree.

Senator SALTONSTALL. He is in a position of great responsibility. His views are very important, whether he is right or wrong.

Senator MONRONEY. I would not ask the committee necessarily to follow Mr. Martin on this but for the public information I have, this is a sounding board that would defeat itself if it is going only to be a chosen few that will be invited to appear.

Senator PROXMIRE. I can say there has been every effort to get people who disagree with the committee to appear and who have as broad a spectrum of views as possible and can express their views as vigorously and vehemently as possible. I think the hearings have been very well balanced.

Senator MONRONEY. Senator Yarborough, do you have any question?

HOUSE COMMITTEE HEARING

Senator YARBOROUGH. Yes. The justification appearing in the hearings before the House says:

It is now necessary to activate seven committees as compared to four in 1950. In the committee's judgment, we can no longer postpone a modest addition to our

continuing operations in order to keep up with basic committee responsibilities. In addition to permitting some limited expansion of the committee's continuing programs, the budget would also make it possible for our Subcommittee on Economic Progress to undertake a much needed study of economic factors in the antipoverty program, including the effects of automation on unemployment. No funds have been available for this subcommittee for the past several years. It is our considered judgment that the responsibilities now before this subcommittee should no longer be deferred. There is, of course tremendous need for this program. But there is much that needs to be known about the way that the various measures in the President's program affect the economy. Programs for retraining, health, and education involve investments that not only eliminate chronic dependency costs but involve positive contributions to productivity.

What they say is that they want this money for the antipoverty program, for retraining, for education and health. This is a labor and public welfare committee responsibility. Senator Joe Clark has had the most able hearings on manpower and retraining-over the years.

He has had the leading industrial statisticians of America's labor leaders, economists and manpower people from leading universities year after year before his subcommittee.

RELATION OF ECONOMIC IMPACT OF GREAT SOCIETY LEGISLATION TO ECONOMIC POLICIES

Senator PROXMIRE. I agree with you a hundred percent. You have done a marvelous job in that committee. It has been the busiest committee in the Congress and it has been responsible for so much of the legislation of the Great Society. Let me say the point of our study is entirely different. The point of the joint economic study is to assess and determine the economic impact now that this legislation has been passed and to relate it to our overall economic policies.

The Great Society program relates to taxation, to monetary policy, to wage and price policy. After all, if you are going to have a poverty program to try to eliminate poverty, we should understand how it affects monetary policy which determines the level of interest rates which in turn determines how much it costs the people to buy homes and cars. This is the job of the Joint Economic Committee to focus expert economic understanding on the broad, complex interrelated elements of our economy.

You make a terrific case for the fact that Clark, Morse, and you and others on the committee have done a fine job of holding hearings but the Joint Economic Committee's purpose is to study the economic impact. This modifies and affects what we are going to do in the future on taxes and monetary policy.

Senator YARBOROUGH. As it affects automation and manpower employment, Joe Clark has devoted years to it.

Senator PROXMIRE. It might be a good idea to have Senator Clark come in and appear. It would be very helpful.

Senator SALTONSTALL. Mr. Chairman, most respectfully the issue before us is this appropriation. We have the question of telephone service yet to be heard.

I would most respectfully hope we can get on this item as soon as

we can.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I agree with the Senator from Massachusetts because the low telephone allowance is choking me to death.

Senator MONRONEY. The economic impact is getting rough.
Do you have any further questions, Senator Yarborough?
Senator YARBOROUGH. I have none.

Senator MONRONEY. We thank you very much, gentlemen, for your information.

Senator PROXMIRE. Thank you very much, gentlemen. There may have been some questions raised by the chairman which have not been answered.

Senator MONRONEY. Mainly it is in this table. I ask unanimous consent that this table with the correction of the typographical error be printed at this point in the record.

(The table referred to follows:)

1 Includes $30,000 in supplemental appropriation bill to cover pay raises.

2 Includes $100,000 in addition to the $265,510 estimated in President's budget.

JUSTIFICATION OF APPROPRIATION FOR FISCAL YEAR 1966

The Joint Economic Committee is requesting $365,510 for fiscal year 1966. This sum is $100.000 more than authorized for the current year. However, it is to be noted that the 1965 level of $265,000 is the same as that of 10 years ago, except for salary increases required by law. In the intervening years the economic issues before the committee have become much broader, more complex, and more varied. It is now necessary to activate seven subcommittees as compared with four in 1950. In the committee's judgment, we can no longer postpone a modest addition to our continuing operations in order to keep up with basic committee responsibilities.