Mr. SOMMER. The cost of the production floorspace, so it is going to be higher than the cost of the storage, and we will compute ahead. Senator MONRONEY. I am talking about the production, would be 615,000 according to your figures, and out of the 2.1 million, because we have got the Superintendent of Documents and the storage of documents and shipping rooms and so on.

Mr. SOMMER. That is a good point, and we could agree that we could sit down around the table and pound these figures out.

Senator MONRONEY. Counting the floorspace for printing would be the higher cost floorspace.

Mr. SOMMER. Yes, because of the wiring and the water, and other things.

Senator MONRONEY. Some of it would be plain storage, and very simple, and it would not even have to be air conditioning, and some of the warehouse rooms would not be air conditioned or lighted and so on. Mr. SOMMER. That is right.

REASONABLE CONSTRUCTION COST ESTIMATE

Senator PROXMIRE. I think it would be helpful for the committee if Mr. Sommer who is an outstanding expert could give us an estimate of what would be a reasonable cost including the very proper point which the chairman has just made, the fact that you have to allow for the Superintendent of Documents and a lot of other things that a commercial printing plant would not have.

Mr. SOMMER. I will be glad to do that and submit it.

Senator MONRONEY. We will hold the record open for it.

Mr. SOMMER. I would not want to be guilty of the same thing we are accusing other people of being guilty of.

(The information requested appears on p. 426.)

49-381-65--20

PER-MAN PRODUCTION

Mr. SOMMER. I have one other angle on this study before I leave it, and that is in terms of production per man. There again we refer to our data, and we find in the commercial printing industry, an employee in the commercial printing industry, on the average, produced about $16,000 of sales.

When we relate those same data to the volume of printing of $64 million and the number of employees that are used at the Government Printing Office, you get an arithmetical answer that shows that this averages something around $9,000 per employee at the Government Printing Office, subtracting the Superintendent of Documents people, because, of course, they don't belong in this kind of a computation. We don't say

Senator MONRONEY. I think that your figures are probably correct, because I don't believe the Superintendent of Documents are listed as employees of the Government Printing Office.

Mr. SOMMER. It depends on where you pick off your figures. They show the total and they show those occupied, and it works both ways. But what we are saying on this point is that since this is true, aren't we reasonable in at least asking or isn't there something that can be done right now in the present building and the present situation to make that $9,000 more closely approach that $16,000? We don't believe the answer is a new 34 percent bigger building. There are other angles. The point I am making is this, and then I will move on, is that since this is our reasoning, and this is the story as we see it from our perspective, we eventually conclude that this needs more study. This is not ready for any committee of Congress to appropriate moneys to proceed with this venture. This really is the essence of the comment.

LABOR COST AND INCOME RATIOS

I have one other point, that the Public Printer in answer to a question I think was from you, Senator Monroney, of what is the labor cost per dollar of sales, and the answer was it is about two-thirds. That to us is 66 cents. That is the labor cost per dollar of sales. Again we look at our data and we say in the printing industry, labor costs per dollar of sales, direct labor costs, is 32 cents. If in the commercial industry it is 32 and in the Government Printing Office it is 66, we think we should find out more about that, in order to determine whether or not we should move off into this new, larger plant.

Senator MONRONEY. It could be possible, and I am not trying to say it is, it would be possible that your labor cost in the more efficient private plant would be lower than if it were in an inefficiently designed public plant.

Mr. SOMMER. That is possible.

Senator MONRONEY. That is part of the case that the Public Printer is resting his one-story construction on, and he can reduce greatly his cost of labor per dollar of printing.

Mr. SOMMER. Except we say our figures are based on 1,000 establishments, and I assure you these are not 1,000 single-story plants in the United States.

LABOR COSTS IN IN-LINE AND MULTISTORY PLANTS COMPARISON

Senator PROXMIRE. Do you have any figures on the comparison between one-story plants, and the multistory plants?

Mr. SOMMER. I think it would be something again that we should try to get.

Senator PROXMIRE. Well, you work for Donnelley.

Mr. SOMMER. I did.

Senator PROXMIRE. And Donnelley has an eight-story plant, you say, in Chicago.

Mr. SOMMER. That is right.

Senator PROXMIRE. It is the biggest in the world.

Mr. SOMMER. $211 million, yes.

Senator PROXMIRE. I should think that you gentlemen would have that figure, or have it available somehow that you could get when you increase your facilities, where to do it and how and when to abandon if you do abandon a plant.

Senator MONRONEY. Would not your answer be that they have a nine-story plant, but if by a catastrophe or something it would burn out in a fire, would they go back and build a nine-story plant, or would they build a one-story plant?

Senator PROXMIRE. But the Government has suffered no fire. It is abandoning its going plant.

Senator MONRONEY. According to the presentation here, we have a usable, willing space lessor for space that we are now paying rent for throughout the downtown area, you see. So it is tweedle dee and dweedle dum. They won't leave an empty building when they move out. That is according to all of the testimony, that they have this space which will be occupied by other Government bureaus.

Senator PROXMIRE. There is some controversy about what they will receive for it.

Senator MONRONEY. I think that $1.5 million is open to serious question. But GSA has the power and authority.

Senator PROXMIRE. If they were starting de novo, they would probably build a one-story plant.

REQUIREMENT FOR ANY ADDITIONAL SPACE QUERIED

Mr. SOMMER. It isn't that simple, if you are going to build a new plant, to build a single-story plant, the crux of this issue, is there a need for any additional space whatsoever, outside of the present multistory building, and, if so, is the only answer to that need to abandon the eight-story or multiple-story plant, and we say "No." This is where we say "No," and not on the question of a single story plant. Let us cite Donnelley. Any time they build a new plant, and Mr. Flint waves his arm and says, "Donnelley is building single-story plants," and they do, when they build a plant in Warsaw, or they build one in Willard, or when they build a plant in Lancaster, but they did not

abandon the home office.

DETERMINATION OF DEFICIENCIES RESPONSIBLE FOR HIGH LABOR COSTS

Senator MONRONEY. But the point I am raising is, if it is costing us 66 percent to do the labor in this type of plant, against 33 percent in private plants, then we ought to look at our facilities and see, A, if the up-and-down hall and the cross traffic and the lack of conveyor belts are ballooning the costs and if new laborsaving devices could reduce them.

Mr. SOMMER. We understand, and we agree with you, and we think that there are opportunities for savings. We question whether it answers the one that has been proposed.

COMPARABILITY OF GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE AND INDUSTRY PLANTS

At the bottom of page 18, I want to reiterate a point which Mr. Thrush touched on, and that is whether or not the Government Printing Office is typical or can be compared with the commercial printing industry. Of course, we in the commercial industry say it is a commercial printer as far as meeting the needs of customers. We could get this group of men back here to talk about how fast they get work out, and how they meet the needs of customers who want their work "yesterday." This to us is normal, and I think that there is proof of the interchangeability, because we submit that if $54 million worth of work can be done by the commercial printing industry, this $54 million with a small portion which is specialized, color work, whether the commercial printing industry does it or the Government does it, it certainly would seem that there must be interchangeability of jobs and of product in order that that can take place.

If the commercial printing industry can print 40 to 60 percent of Internal Revenue forms, and the Central Office produces 40 or 60 percent, it would seem that there must be some interchangeability of the equipment and the methods of producing. The point is that we don't put too much credence in the basic premise that there is a marked difference. There are differences. Once again we have 6,000 members, and I can attest to you that if we would ask each of those 6,000 members, each would sincerely claim that his plant is different than the other 5,999. This is normal. We are just saying that we don't believe that there is this marked difference between the way work has to be done at the Government Printing Office, and the way we do work in the commercial printing industry, and, therefore, many of these comparisons are meaningful.

DISSIMILARITIES IN AND POSSIBLE STANDARDIZATION OF GOVERNMENT PRINTING

Senator MONRONEY. There are types of work put into Government Printing Office that do vary more widely, at least that has been the claim of the Government Printer, and I am inclined to agree with him, they vary more widely than the type of work that goes in generally to the general printer. This is perhaps our fault, and maybe a study would be very good on that score, to see how he could standardize the printing needs of the Government. But as it is done today, I am sure they have to carry a great many more types of stock, and a great many more forms, and a great many more sizes of everything than would be normal in a non-Government printing office.

Mr. SOMMER. If you are turning out $211 million worth of stuff, which is the one plant that we are alluding to, I don't have to go further.

Senator MONRONEY. Is that Donnelley Printing Co. ?

Mr. SOMMER. Yes, and this is not two or three big jobs.

Senator MONRONEY. That is not quite comparable, I don't believe. because they do big circulation work for a multiple thousands of circulation, rather than a multiplicity of small jobs.

Mr. SOMMER. They have small jobs, too.

Senator MONRONEY. I know Donnelley has, but I am talking about McCall's. That has been brought into the discussion several times here, the comparability.

Mr. SOMMER. McCall's tends to be more of a publication plant, and they incidentally handle 41 carloads a day, so that 18 carloads a day really does not impress us.

VARIETY IN STOCK REQUIREMENTS

Senator MONRONEY. It is the types of whether you are having rolls or the same type of stock, or whether you have to handle 1,800 different kinds of stock.

Mr. SOMMER. I think that you have a good point and I think that it should be studied.

FEASIBILITY ANALYZATION OF PRESENT PLANT ADEQUACY

In conclusion and I am embarrassed to say at the top of page 19 there is a typographical error. We are dealing in an area which lends itself readily to the revelation of accurate facts through a proper professional study. Our industry has the technical ability and resources to assist the Government in the proper analysis of its printing production and we would welcome the opportunity of analyzing with you and for you the true facts relating to the feasibility of using the present Government Printing Office and the areas surrounding it more effectively and more efficiently. It is our hope that you will not proceed without having the result of a proper technical study before you.

Somebody back here handed me the annual report of Donnelley Printing Co., which shows to some extent the nature and the volume and the differences in the kind of product that is being produced. You are welcome to this.

Senator MONRONEY. You don't want that printed in the record, do you?

Mr. SOMMER. No.

Senator MONRONEY. That is a color job, and we don't go into color jobs.

Mr. SOMMER. I think that we have made the point. The point is simply this, that really, there are differences, and every plant has certain peculiarities, and every plant is different to some extent, but we do not accept the idea that there is such a marked difference between the single color pamphlets, and folders, and brochures, and sales material produced at the Government Printing Office, and the commercial printing industry.

INADEQUACY OF NEW BUILDING REQUIREMENT

That, gentlemen, brings to a close my comments. I trust that you feel as I have been trying to convey, that we are sincere in raising these doubts. The commercial printing industry is not interested in just standing here and saying "no." The reason we are maintaining this position and are here is because we sincerely think that it isn't so important that this appropriation must be made now, at this instant, without first having some answers to these questions that we think are pertinent.