Mr. COOPER. I think about $400.

Senator O'MAHONEY. I have a sheet here which was furnished by your association. The carrier who has a route of 29 miles, according to your table, would, under the proposed schedule, receive $210 less.

The CHAIRMAN. From what are you reading?

Senator O'MAHONEY. From a table prepared by the National Association of Rural Letter Carriers.

Mr. COOPER. That is right.

Senator O'MAHONEY. That shows a reduction of $210.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator O'MAHONEY. There is a difference of only $30 in what is proposed in the bill and what they get here.

The CHAIRMAN. Those figures show the effect the bill has on the short routes.

Mr. COOPER. Yes.

Senator O'MAHONEY. The last column on that table shows the reduction in pay under this bill.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. COOPER. The largest amount of loss in this table is $420 for a 20-mile route.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Yes; but this table also shows that the person carrying a 20-mile route would receive $1,444.50. How long do you suppose it would take to traverse a 20-mile route? There are only 319 of them.

Mr. COOPER. It would depend upon the section of the country and the kind of roads he would have. Some of them who deliver in thickly settled suburban sections have more difficulty than some of them on the mud roads, because they have so many boxes and so many stops.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Is it not the fact that the great majority of these 20-mile or under routes are traversed in an extremely short time?

Mr. COOPER. I would not be prepared to say about that. If everything were equal, I would say yes; but that is not the fact about a good many of these routes. The conditions vary so much on the different routes that it is very difficult to say. I think that most of our routes are in fairly populous districts.

Senator O'MAHONEY. You know that consolidation has not been resorted to because the Department just wants to cause persons to drop out of the service?

Mr. COOPER. That is true.

Senator O'MAHONEY. You are not complaining about that?
Mr. COOPER. Not at all.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Then we cannot advance that as an argument, can we?

Mr. COOPER. Maybe I can develop an argument.

Senator O'MAHONEY. We will be glad to know what you have to develop here. You have 319 routes of 20 miles or less?

Mr. COOPER. I believe so.

Senator O'MAHONEY. According to this table which you have prepared.

Mr. COOPER. Yes, sir.

Senator O'MAHONEY. A carrier on one of those routes receives $1,444.80. Is it not a fact that the great majority of those 319 carriers are doing their work in a comparatively short time during the day? Is not that true, or is it?

Mr. COOPER. I doubt if they complete their service any sooner than the average.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Do you think that those 319 on the average devote 8 hours a day to their routes?

Mr. COOPER. I would not say 8 hours, but I would say 6 or 7. Senator O'MAHONEY. Is it not really an average of 5 hours or less? Mr. COOPER. Not according to our estimate.

Senator O'MAHONEY. What do you think about that, Mr. Brown? Mr. BROWN. I have got about as favorable a route as any in the United States, and it takes me 5 hours.

Senator O'MAHONEY. How long is your route?

Mr. BROWN. Thirty-six miles.

Senator O'MAHONEY. That includes the preparation of the mail and everything else?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Senator O'MAHONEY. So that during 5 hours you cover that route? Mr. BROWN, Yes, sir; sometimes 6 or 7.

Mr. COOPER. Let me say that we had some figures of the cost of operation in a suburb of Chicago. I think the route was something like 13 miles in length. That carrier wanted to know if he couldn't be placed in the mountain service. An effort was made to do that, and I am not sure whether that was done or not.

Senator O'MAHONEY. HOW Would an amendment of this kind appeal to you: That there should be a limitation of the amount of reduction of these routes starting 30 miles or under in such cases where the carrier devotes not less than, let us say, 7 hours day to the work?

Mr. COOPER. What would you do with the individual who was performing a less number of hours than you suggest, as to the rest of his time?

Senator O'MAHONEY. I am not going to undertake to provide any work for him.

Mr. COOPER. He is forbidden by law to do anything else.

Senator O'MAHONEY. That is interpreted in a more or less liberal

way.

Mr. COOPER. Senator, I have tried to explain to these boys who have complained to me about this discrimination against extremely short routes. I said it was logical to conclude that the Department would prefer to settle the question with the consolidation program. I think maybe you could get by with that argument, especially if the Department is inclined to make the consolidations. Senator O'MAHONEY. Bear in mind that you are dealing with emergency legislation.

Mr. COOPER. Yes, sir.

Senator O'MAHONEY. And this consolidation during the past several years, while dealing with the restoration of normal conditions, affects a very much broader scale.

Mr. COOPER. Do you think the mechanics in the operation of the consolidation program have got to go to the fullest extent?

Senator O'MAHONEY. No.

Mr. COOPER. You could consolidate more rapidly than you do. Senator O'MAHONEY. Absolutely.

Mr. COOPER. One hundred a week is pretty rapid, it seems to me. Senator O'MAHONEY. Until I left the Department in January, there had been a survey made in only one State to determine how many consolidations should be made.

Mr. COOPER. I understand that.

Senator O'MAHONEY. That survey was made to determine what routes could be consolidated without loss to the service. I am sure there could be developed many cases in which it would be possible to unite a great number of these small routes. Do you not think so yourself?

Mr. COOPER. I think so; and if developed on a wholesale scale you would have a lot more of criticism. I think if you can devise a scheme where you can provide for a full day's work for the carrier and let everyone receive his mail before the noon hour, the farmers will all be happy.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Do you mean a half day's work for the carrier, and let him do it in the morning?

Mr. COOPER. It is impossible to make it satisfactory all round

Senator O'MAHONEY. An amendment such as I proposed would not appeal to you?

Mr. COOPER. I don't know how that would work.

Senator O'MAHONEY. The Department has made certain representations to us, and you have made certain representations to us. Mr. COOPER. Yes, sir.

Senator O'MAHONEY. I am trying to see whether or not there is some middle ground.

Mr. COOPER. Wouldn't you consider there was considerable merit to this bill, it having gone through by the unanimous approval of the other committee in the House of Representatives? There are very able men on that committee who thoroughly understand the Postal Service. The chairman is very well informed. I understand it passed the House committee without any objection.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Of course, you know that both Houses have a habit of reviewing the work of each other.

Mr. COOPER. I understand that.

Mr. BROWN. May I ask a question?

Senator O'MAHONEY. Of course, you understand that I am not a witness.

Mr. BROWN. I would just like to make a statement then. In view of the fact that these short routes could be absorbed by consolidation, don't you reckon there was a cause for that protective clause in there?

Senator O'MAHONEY. I do not know that I quite get you.

Mr. BROWN. In other words, if these short routes can be consolidated, as was brought out, why should the Department interpose any objection to that provision in here?

Senator O'MAHONEY. Of course, I do not know why the Department did interpose the objection.

Mr. COOPER. I want to thank the committee.

Senator HAYDEN (presiding). Are there any other witnesses?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I believe that that concludes our witnesses.

STATEMENT OF C. C. McDEVITT, PUBLISHER RURAL LETTER CARRIERS' ASSOCIATION OFFICIAL ORGAN, WASHINGTON, D.C.-Resumed

Mr. McDEVITT. Mr. Chairman, I would like to call attention to the fact that in the last three national conventions of our organization this question of these short routes has been discussed and considered, and resolutions have been adopted. In a good many of these so-called "short routes while the routes are short, there are very many stops, and they have very heavy mail. They have appealed to our national convention for relief from that condition, and we feel that they really have a righteous cause.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Just what is that situation?

Mr. McDEVITT. While this provides that a man on a route 30 miles or under will only lose $180, they feel they are badly discriminated against if they are going to lose $420.

Senator O'MAHONEY. That is a conditional statement. You say "if" that happens. What is the fact?

Mr. McDEVITT. We know that many of them do.
Senator O'MAHONEY. Those who work a full day?
Mr. McDEVITT. Yes, sir.

Senator O'MAHONEY. What do you think of the suggestion I made, that this provision be changed so that the reduction shall be confined, with respect to the number of hours worked, to limiting the reduction of the short-route carrier who works a full day? What would you think of that?

Mr. McDEVITT. As a matter of fact, our principal objective is to give a square deal. If something of that kind could be worked out, we are in favor of it.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Do you think that would be possible?

Mr. McDEVITT. I think it would as much as the suggestion made this morning, to try to give different equipment allowances for different types of routes.

Senator O'MAHONEY. HOW Would it do to have a report from the average postmaster as to how much time it takes to perform the service?

Mr. McDEVITT. But they don't agree as to all the elements that would make up a working day.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Let us put it this way: Here is a carrier with a 20-mile route. It takes him 8 hours to do that work, because of a large number of stops. Here is another carrier who also has a 20-mile route, and he does it in 4 hours, because he has fewer stops. Is it right and fair that those two carriers should receive the same compensation?

Mr. McDEVITT. Absolutely not. There should be some legislation that would give the proper salary and equipment allowance to each individual carrier.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Therefore, I say, could we not write in this bill an amendment to limit the reduction upon the man who gives a full day's service, but the fellow who has a few hours and a shorter route take a commensurate reduction because he is getting a far greater salary for his fewer hours than the other fellow, according to this table.

Mr. McDEVITT. You make a good point, as you always do. I would say that if anything can be worked out to give a proper compensation to these short-route carriers, that would be good judgment. As a matter of fact, the association did not make a bigger issue over that point, as much as it should have, in view of the more important things involved for the entire carrier body. Jim Mead, the chairman of the House committee, saw that discrimination and sponsored an amendment on the floor of the House.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will take a recess until next Tuesday at 10:30.

(Whereupon, at 5:20 p.m., a recess was taken until Tuesday, May 8, 1934. at 10:30 a.m.)