of the subcommittee which really came into focus around 1973. Much of the activities have developed since then.

Mr. ALLEN. Yes.

Mr. EILBERG. Now, what more should we be doing, what should other elements of the U.S. Government be doing in this matter of Nazi war criminals?

Mr. ALLEN. First of all, I must say without the work of your subcommittee, without the work of its chairman, without the work of Ms. Holtzman, I would say beyond a peradventure of a doubt there would be no interest other than a momentary passing one. I do believe that the courage and decency and honesty of certain former INS officials who have also raised an outcry about this is also a factor. I also believe that coincidental with that the proven maledictions, malfeasances, and misfeasances, and a conspiracy within our Government at the highest level, namely the Gestapo which operated out of the Oval Office of the White House, no less, also adds to the flavor and atmosphere so that the people of America are now more open to consideration of this issue.

I think without the work of this subcommittee, however, that would not be the case.

I also think the media, the daily press, radio and TV have played an extremely important probative role in realizing what is in front of us.

I might say by analogy that the process of democratic pergation that Jefferson talked about so often was never realized in the Watergate case. There was never a full implementation of that. Watergate was bought off by a deal, by the granting of a pardon to the unindicted coconspirator. We cannot allow this to happen. The issue of Nazi war criminals in the United States and your subcommittee, Mr. Chairman, and the rest of your colleagues on the subcommittee, it is really in your hands.

People like myself, journalists, writers, investigators, researchers, and the moral, highly morally motivated people such as the people who came here from Philadelphia, the concerned lawyers and concerned educators, particularly the leading role the judicial organization has played on this question, without them too this issue would never, ever, be examined. But I do believe that you have the powers of subpena, am I not mistaken?

Mr. EILBERG. Yes.

Mr. ALLEN. I do hope that you judiciously but firmly and fairly use those powers. Because I do not have such powers, and neither do the journalists whom I have cited who are extremely talented people. They do not have these powers. You have these powers, and can only say to you, good luck in the use of those powers. Mr. EILBERG. Mr. Allen, you stated that you have studied the judicial proceedings which INS has instituted in the last couple of years. Can you give the subcommittee your candid opinion on how efficiently and effectively these proceedings have been handled? Are you of the opinion that the INS trial attorneys are equal to the task of prosecuting these cases against top notch defense attorneys with extensive trial experience?

Mr. ALLEN. Yes, that question has come up, as you well know and I well know. And the criticism has been made by very knowledgeable people, former practicing attorneys, trial attorneys,

judges, lawyers, researchers, and my impression from particularly certain circles of this criticism is they take a rather dim view of the trial experience of the presently reconstituted special task force, whatever it is calling itself these days, in the INS.

My own personal view of this matter is that there have been positive developments in the INS. I think that those positive developments, notwithstanding the obvious lack of trial experience, should be allowed to settle, but at the same time it should be allowed to settle by a constant but critical help from you at all times.

I also believe that there is great merit in the proposal, for example, of the concerned lawyers and judges from Philadelphia. There is great merit in their proposal that special counsel be called upon by the INS to assist them which has, as you know, as it has been done in the past and can be done in the future, I think that meritorious proposal requires consideration, because it is a positive

one.

I think any role which is positive and helpful should be welcomed and not particularly critically rebuffed or rejected.

I do hope that the media takes an even more aggressive sense of responsibility in this area. I might add that I have found among editorial colleagues and people whom I have worked with closely in most of the large newspaper organizations throughout the United States, they tend to get a little disappointed. They tend to think that they are going to score any time they want from 50 and 60 yards out. That is not the name of this ball game.

You have to use instead running stuff all of the time between tackle and tackle, so to speak, if I may use the anology, it's just rough, and you have to keep on pounding away.

I do believe the future of this issue pretty much resides in those hands, your subcommittee, your colleagues, staff, very able and fine staff of this subcommittee, with concerned citizens such as the ones we have already discussed, with concerned ethnic and religious organizations which have expressed concern across the country, and with renewed vigor and sustained vigor by our media whose talents and whose insights are absolutely indispensible to this issue.

I believe that this issue, as I remarked at the outset of my testimony here, is a very highly moral one. We are not simply dealing with legal niceties, we are not simply dealing with legal prescriptions which we must follow, and then be satisfied we have had it. We are not. We are dealing no less than with the past itself in terms of the future.

We are identifying ourselves and declaring, in effect, our solidarity and understanding and sensitivities to the martyred 6 million, and, in addition to that, to the martyred 11 million that were put to specific Fascist death during the period 1939 to 1945 because they happened to have been something less than a superman. So this issue develops with great moral force on what is the best in our American tradition, our American democratic tradition. Those who would utilize these creatures and their organizations represent forces within our society itself who show what they themselves would do and let me assure you this struggle is not a momentary thing.

It is reflected in this issue and it will go on.
Mr. EILBERG. Ms. Holtzman?

Ms. HOLTZMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Allen, I want to commend you for the very important work you have done in this area.

Sometimes it has been a lonely crusade, but it has been extremely helpful to all of us who are concerned with this issue.

Mr. ALLEN. Thank you.

Ms. HOLTZMAN. I would like to ask you some specific questions. First, about the statement you made regarding the transplantation of Fascist organizations to the United States, presumably with the complicity of Government agencies. Could you be more specific about that statement?

Mr. ALLEN. Yes, of course.

Ms. HOLTZMAN. I mean what agencies, specifically? Let me rephrase my question.

Specifically what organizations, what agencies?

Mr. ALLEN. What I meant by that was that the degree of complicity is not the transplanting in terms of Government agencies. I have no such evidence, but what I mean by degree of complicity is knowledgeability that certatin individual accused Nazi war criminals and collaborators also belong to these organizations which, in turn, have engaged in extensive activities of an extreme right wing, pro-Fascist, pro-Nazi nature.

So that any denial of such activities or any failure to realize the import of such activities by certain Government agencies is completely misleading. I cite, as an example of what the GAO said here this morning, that the CIA was not particularly interested in what charges were made against certain sources, they were going to go ahead and use them.

I believe that the nature of the source for such so-called information happens to be very relevant to this issue and very important to this issue. You can see further aspects of it by examining these organizations.

I will give you a very quick example: The Iron Guard was the storm troop counterpart, in fact, it's even older than the SA in Nazi Germany, in Rumania. There are chapters of the Iron Guard in at least seven cities in the United States. They issue records of Hitler's speeches, they issue recordings of speeches by Nazi war criminals who had belonged to the Iron Guard. They issue publications and they also carry out what has to be called harassment activities within their own emigree circles.

Mr. EILBERG. Harassment amounting, incidentally, to very often violent confrontrations.

Mr. ALLEN. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.

Ms. HOLTZMAN. Mr. Allen, with regard to the case No. 10, involving the man who was accused of complicity in experiments in Dachau, you mentioned that he was going to be prosecuted.

Mr. ALLEN. He was on what was called the suspect list of the American prosecution team in Nuremberg.

Ms. HOLTZMAN. Why were proceedings not brought against him? Mr. ALLEN. I really don't have the definitive answer to that.

Ms. HOLTZMAN. Have you discussed this with the prosecution? You said you had discussions with the chief of the U.S. prosecution forces. What is his answer?

Mr. ALLEN. His answer is that he was simply flown to the United States.

Ms. HOLTZMAN. Is the implication of his answer that he would have brought a prosecution against this individual in the Nuremberg trials?

Mr. ALLEN. I think it was implicit in his answer that, yes, he would have.

Ms. HOLTZMAN. Mr. Chairman, I would hope the staff would interview this prosecutor and find out what the status was of that prospective prosecution.

Mr. ALLEN. I can tell you further, Ms. Holtzman, because it might be helpful, that there were a couple of lists drawn up prior to the trial itself. This individual's name and record hung, that is, they were maintained right up until the time of the trial. You can see that very clearly in reading the proceedings of the trial.

Ms. HOLTZMAN. Thank you very much. I have run out of time. Mr. EILBERG. Mr. Allen, we are indeed indebted to you, not only for your factual presentation but also for your message which has to be an inspiration to all of us, not only in this room but throughout America.

We thank you very much for your contribution. We look forward to a continuing relationship and hope you will be able to stay with us at least this afternoon in private session with the subcommittee staff.

[A summary statement subsequently submitted by the witness follows the record of this day's hearing.]

Mr. ALLEN. I will look forward to this, and thank you.

Mr. EILBERG. Mr. DeVito, we have run out of time. I hope you will be able to stay overnight and we will be delighted to have you testify first thing tomorrow at 9:30.

I want to acknowledge the presence of the lawyers and educators from Philadelphia who have been so interested in this matter. We welcome your interest.

With that, the subcommittee hearing is adjourned. We will have to go to the floor to vote immediately.

[Summary statement of Charles R. Allen, Jr., follows:]

SUMMARY STATEMENT BY CHARLES R. ALLEN, JR.

Finally, Mr. Chairman and Honorable Members of the Subcommittee, what can really be said about the utilization and often the literal employment of accused Nazi war criminals and collaborators by agencies of the United States Government? I am certain that my rhetorical tone is apparent, for no language can actually express my indignation and unqualified denunciation of such an affront to the American democratic tradition.

Of what possible usefulness to our Government are the genocidists who stand yet as living testimony to the ultimate act of desecration in humankind's history: The Holocaust? By letting such creatures as proven genocidists, self-admitted collaborators and abettors of German fascism during World War II even continue to reside in our country with utter impunity-as the vast majority of them does to this day, we befoul ourselves. We do so not alone before the Six Million Martyred Jews but, let it never by forgotten, before the other Eleven Million innocents-men, women and children of the nations of Europe, the Communists, Commisars, Gypsies and other "untermenschen"-who were put to specific fascist death by the Nazis and their

collaborators.

But the systematic employment of any of these creatures-and, as I have demonstrated here today during the course of my testimony, there have been at least 149 of them who, collectively, have been accused of responsibility of varying degree for the genocide of some 2.4 million people between 1939 and 1945; and who have been sought out, used, protected and shielded, employed and consulted by at least 10 U.S. Government Agencies, secretly and behind the back of the American people—is, in my view, totally unacceptable.

Having said as much is, however, not enough.

We must, once having vented our rage and indignation at this cowardly assault on our democratic rights of open government, step back and take a broader, objective and, even in an analytic sense, detached perspective of the entire issue which, at last, is now clearly before us and the public ken.

We are, again in my view, all to much hung up on the notion of "conspiracy." Over the past year or so. wild, irresponsible and, of course, manifestly unproveable, charges of an "Odessa" operating within the Government at large and a "Judenrat" within the Immigration & Naturalization Service (INS) in particular have been leveled from certain sources.

Even the General Accounting Office's (GAO) Report of May 15th is hooked on this preoccupation of a conspiracy which accounts for the now-established fact that, yes, the United States and its Government have proven a haven for criminals from the Nazi past.

Such emotionalism will lead us nowhere except down the dead-end alleys of blind conjecture rather than enable us to determine rationally, as nearly as we are able to do so, the larger answers and truths now embodied in this historic consideration: why has this patently obscene political scandal happened in, presumably, the same America which, as a leader of The Grand Alliance, played an indispensible role in bringing Hitlerite fascism to its fiery end?

I underscore the "why" of the matter rather than the other, natural questions of how they got here, when, what have they been doing since arriving in the United States, where have they been living and other incidental questions for which, in many cases, we do have concrete, irrefutable answers.

What we must consider, address ourselves to is the far more difficult, often subtle and complex problem of why all this has ahppened. And no devil-theory of history, complete with a mysterious conspiracy, hatched somewhere in the dim past behind some set of bureaucratic doors by officials, unknown, who still are manipulating this matter.

No, history does not allow for such relatively easy approaches as the overall conspiracy. The issue of Nazi war criminals in the United States and their utilization by agencies of the U.S. Government is no exception.

What is wrong about such an approach as the conspiracy? It is not, let me emphasize, that conspiracies do not occur in history. They do, and they have been demonstrated. I do believe that most historians, even the most stringently conservative, would readily acknowledge that Watergate was a conspiracy operating out of the Oval Room in the White House by a President of the United States and an American-variant of the Gestapo.

But we have no evidence that a similar conspiracy was operating at any time over the 33 years of this question. Moreover, I feel strongly that such a plot is not likely to be found, certainly not proved.

Not that there have not been a plentitude of cover-ups, delays, deliberate and protracted evasions and downright falsehoods perpetrated by individual officials and departments of Government concerning both the presence of Nazi political criminals among us and their utilization by those very same Agencies. I have both here in testimony and in many of my extensive writings and investigations on this subject demonstrated this phenomenon on numerous occasions as have other writers and journalists.

I have shown and will subsequently show in my new book that, led by the U.S. State Department, the Justice Department, its INS and the CIA and FBI have all been guilty of flagrantly indulging, deliberately, in such practices.

Yet these acts do not constitute a grand, overall conspiracy. Together they are something far more serious.

For addiction to a conspiracy theory leads to certain fallacies which, in turn, feeds enervating illusions.

Look, the recent GAO Report trumpets, we examined the matter of the utilization of Nazi war criminals and, in its own words, "a widespread conspiracy to obstruct probes of alleged Nazi war criminals (is) not supported by the available evidence