In the Budget for the current year we did our best in estimating the amount of money needed and found that we either had to curtail our program or ask for a supplementary appropriation. We asked for a supplementary appropriation of $10,000,000 which Congress made available.

Mr. TARVER. If I understand you correctly, you contemplate that if the $100,000,000 is not sufficient a supplementary appropriation will be requested?

Mr. HAWKINS. I would say yes.

Mr. HARE. Have you finished, Mr. Hawkins?

Mr. HAWKINS. I have finished all that I have to volunteer, but I will be glad, of course, to offer anything else that may be requested.

METHOD OF TRAINING DEFENSE WORKERS AND LENGTH OF COURSE

Mr. ENGEL. This money that we are appropriating is limited to training of men in industry?

Mr. HAWKINS. Men and women.
Mr. ENGEL. People in industry?

Mr. HAWKINS. That is right.

Mr. ENGEL. This is through the States and by the States?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes.

Mr. ENGEL. Through the State departments of educational and vocational training?

Mr. HAWKINS. The State boards for vocational education.

Mr. ENGEL. Just how do they train people? How do they go about it?

Mr. HAWKINS. The State may set up schools and operate the training program with State organizations or they may sublet the contract to a local board of education. The latter practice is by far more prevalent.

Mr. ENGEL. Through the local board of education and use the school rooms of the local board of education, if possible?

Mr. HAWKINS. Mostly shops.

Mr. ENGEL. They teach both adult and young students?

Mr. HAWKINS. I will put it this way: A person must be of such an age that he will be legally employable upon the completion of the course and none of our courses are more than 3 months.

Mr. ENGEL. In teaching these people, training these people rather, about the best you can do is teach them one, two, or three operations of the machine?

Mr. HAWKINS. That is right.

Mr. ENGEL. You cannot make a finished machinist out of them? Mr. HAWKINS. No.

Mr. ENGEL. Your courses are of about 3 months, are they?

Mr. HAWKINS. The extreme length is 3 months-the majority of them are from 6 to 8 weeks in length.

Mr. ENGEL. Your trainees can be divided into several coursesfor instance those who have had previous training and going in to brush up. Is that right?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes.

Mr. ENGEL. Then you have the trainee who has had no training, and who goes in and takes this 6 or 8 weeks course.

NUMBER OF TRAINEES SENT TO INDUSTRY

Can you give us the number of trainees sent into industry? Mr. HAWKINS. Since we have been operating the preemployment program, there have been about 2,000,000.

Mr. ENGEL. About 2,000,000-how many male and how many female?

Mr. HAWKINS. From July 1, 1940, 420,278 were females.

Mr. ENGEL. Out of a total?

Mr. HAWKINS. Two million one hundred and eighty-two thousand two hundred and fourteen.

Mr. ENGEL. Roughly speaking, about 20 percent are females, from July 1, 1942?

Mr. HAWKINS. From July 1, 1940, to February 28, 1943. (Discussion off the record.)

Mr. ENGEL. What is the percentage, or number of women, who have been trained to replace men who had already been trained for shop work?

Mr. HAWKINS. I gave you a figure of 420,278. Of that number 300,705 had been in the program since July 1, 1942.

Mr. ENGEL. In other words, we are right now going through a process of replacing a great many of these men in industry by women employees?

Mr. HAWKINS. That is right.

Mr. ENGEL. They will have to be trained?

Mr. HAWKINS. That is right.

Mr. ENGEL. I am just wondering to what extent that is going to put an additional burden on you and on the service?

Mr. HAWKINS. It has already, of course.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HAWKINS. We estimate that from 50 to 75 percent of the 800,000 preemployment trainees that we put in our 1944 estimate will be

women.

Mr. ENGEL. That is covered by your estimate?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes. We did not separate the estimates regarding men and women, but we figured on the basis of 800,000 preemployment trainees. I think that I should explain at this point that a large percentage, probably 75 percent, of the new employees who are employed by industry and sent to our schools for a period of 6 to 8 weeks training before being put on the production line are women.

They are classified as supplementary rather than preemployment trainees for the simple reason that they are no longer in the labor market; they are employed in war production industries.

SUFFICIENCY OF FUNDS APPROPRIATED

Mr. HARE. You have had no difficulty in meeting your demands for funds; have you?

Mr. HAWKINS. We have not been handicapped because we have come back and asked for additional funds. When we do have difficulty in meeting our demands we ask for an additional appropriation.

Mr. HARE. You have found that the supply up to now has been sufficient?

Mr. HAWKINS. Supply of funds?

Mr. HARE. Supply of funds and supply of trainees.

Mr. HAWKINS. The supply of trainees is not sufficient to meet the employment demand in a great many instances.

Mr. HARE. But the supply is sufficient to meet the demands as far as the funds are available?

Mr. HAWKINS. No; I would not say that. I would not put it quite that way. We have requests for trained workers that we cannot supply because of the fact there is not a sufficient supply of trainees coming from the employment service for preemployment training.

Mr. HARE. But you are still able to dispose of the funds you have?

Mr. HAWKINS. Yes. The training load is sufficient to use our funds.

TRAINING OF CIVILIANS BY THE ARMY AND NAVY

Mr. HARE. Are there any other governmental agencies doing similar work-that is, training persons for employment in industry? Mr. HAWKINS. I do not know, Mr. Chairman, for the simple reason that I do not know whether the National Youth Administration is operating a training program or a work program. I take it that the N. Y. A. program is a combination of work and training. We have a combination of work and training.

Mr. HARE. Then both of you have a combination of work and training.

Mr. HAWKINS. Whether it is the same combination I am not prepared to say.

Mr. HARE. Is there any other agency of the Government doing similar work or work corresponding to that of your Division and the N. Y. A.?

Mr. HAWKINS. The only one that comes to mind is the training courses that are maintained by some of the Army establishments and the Navy establishments where they do some training of civilians. Mr. HARE. Then in the Army and in the Navy they have set up for preemployment training?

Mr. HAWKINS. No, I do not know of any case of preemployment training.

Mr. HARE. That would be classed as in-plant training?
Mr. HAWKINS. That is right.

Mr. HARE. Do you do some in-plant training?

Mr. HAWKINS. We do some training in our schools for people who are employed in a plant. We have practically no cases where we enter a plant and, while a person is on the job, train him on the job at the plant, while he is in the production line.

We do have cases where we have operated a training program in which part of it entails production of-we will say, parts for airplanes. That is, it is a school shop in which production takes place rather than training in a plant on the regular production line.

Mr. HARE. Am I to gather from that that the Army and the Navy have their agencies training in the plants and directing the employees in the discharge of their various duties and functions?

Mr. HAWKINS. In the navy yards and the arsenals.

Mr. HARE. Does the Manpower Commission have any training school of any kind?

Mr. HAWKINS. I should say not if you say aside from the National Youth Administration.

APPRENTICE TRAINING COURSES

Mr. HARE. What about your apprenticeship-training courses? Mr. HAWKINS. The Federal Apprenticeship Committee does not do any training. They work with plant managements in helping them to organize training within the plant.

Any training of apprentices or up-grading work other than that is done in our schools.

Mr. HARE. Would you explain exactly just what your work is in connection with apprenticeship training in the school?

Mr. HAWKINS. The apprentice works on the job, we will say, 40 hours a week. He comes to one of our schools for 8 hours a week, for instruction in relation to the job to which he is an apprentice in industry.

Mr. HARE. How does that differ from your supplementary training? Mr. HAWKINS. Our supplementary training is usually for a person who wants to learn to either operate a machine which he is not now working on a different type of machine from which he is working on-or he wants to learn to read blueprints, or he wants to get a knowledge of mathematics, or something of that kind. In other words, the apprentice has a definite training program laid out for him and is required to take the training.

The worker in the plant knows that if he is to get on he will have to acquire new knowledge or skills and, voluntarily, outside of working hours, he comes to school.

Dr. STUDEBAKER. In many respects training in the schools for apprentices is similar to the program of supplementary training. În other words, the people who are engaged in supplementary training are also employed.

Mr. HAWKINS. The extension type of supplementary training.

Mr. TARVER. In answer to a question by Mr. Engel with reference to training you said that the training was in shops. You did not mean that literally, did you?

Mr. HAWKINS. That is right. I merely corrected his statement about schoolrooms.

Mr. TARVER. You made a statement at one point in your testimony that you have something over 2,000,000 pre-employment trainees. You meant all of your trainees?

Mr. HAWKINS. I mean 2,000,000 preemployment trainees since July 1940.

Mr. TARVER. You estimated 800,000 for next year?

Mr. HAWKINS. That is right.

CONDITIONS AFFECTING TRAINEES IN AREAS HAVING NO INDUSTRIES

Mr. TARVER. You stated that the training program had not been sufficient to supply the needs of industries in certain areas.

Last year your office was being examined in connection with the testimony of Mr. Williams, head of N. Y. A., it was developed that N. Y. A. had developed, to my mind, a somewhat better plan for getting workers who had been trained to jobs than you had. They had a plan whereby a boy or girl trained in an area where industries did not exist, could be transferred to an area where the industries did exist, and where there was need for his or her service; whereas in

the case of your Vocational Education it appeared that in areas where no employment existed the trainees were unable to obtain employment in other areas. They had been advised, upon application, that housing conditions were not such that workers could be imported from elsewhere.

I have in mind some cases in my own district where young men had received a proper training for the Navy Yard at Charleston, S. C., and they were refused employment because they did not live within 50 miles of Charleston. What has been done to correct that situation? Do you have any large number of trainees, trained in sections where no war industries exist, who cannot secure employment in other areas where there is need for them?

Mr. HAWKINS. We have not found it necessary to pay for the transportation of trainees from their homes to places where jobs are available, when jobs are not available in their immediate home locality.

Mr. TARVER. In my district we have nothing much in the way of war industries. We have thousands of vocational educational trainees, many of whom are unable to obtain employment. Some of them applied for employment for which they were fitted at the Charleston Navy Yard and were told that because they did not live within 50 miles they could not be employed because of housing conditions there.

What is the use of training them if they will not be employed?

Mr. HAWKINS. We have just made a study of that situation, Judge, and we have found that of the persons trained in preemployment courses during the first 22 years-that is, 2,000,000 persons or better95 percent have either gone into the armed forces or are employed. Mr. HARE. Employed in industries?

Mr. HAWKINS. That is right.

Mr. TARVER. You have no plan of absorbing their transportation to industry where their services are needed?

Mr. HAWKINS. No. We consider that is the job of the United States Employment Service-the shifting of labor from one area to another. Mr. HARE. I have found the same complaint.

The question in my mind is this: These men who have been trained and who live more than 50 miles from the navy yards are unable to obtain employment and yet there is pressure within that particular area for workers. There is a great demand for them. There are vacancies.

It seems to me that the people on the outside should be the ones to look after the housing facilities if these men are willing to go there and take chances on these conditions. They should not be eliminated simply because they live more than 50 miles away.

I wonder if any complaints have come to you with reference to that? Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, there have. We take these cases up with the United States Employment Service and get a clearance through that service, when we are able. We believe that is what the United States Employment Service is for-to make those adjustments between areas and it is really outside of the area of training, although we are interested in the problem.

Mr. HARE. I am glad to get that information. I find that these people do not know how to make their complaints to your officials.