words, every lawyer in the San Francisco office, for example, would be handling some cases that would arise in Sacramento or cities in the interior of the State, and in other words, such as Nevada or Utah. Mr. THOMAS. You have five or six lawyers stationed there. Do they all just pick up and travel together when they try a case?

Mr. REILLY. No. Usually we assign only one man to a case, unless it is a case of unusual difficulty.

Mr. HOUSTON. You see, we have several States in each regional office. For instance, there is Utah.

Mr. REILLY. Utah has been added.

AVERAGE TRAVEL EXPENSE

Mr. HARE. The average travel expense of your field and departmental staff is $200 per month?

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir; on the departmental staff-those who do most of the traveling are the trial examiners who are stationed in Washington but who are assigned to hear cases in the field. Two other classes of employees travel, viz, assistant field directors and enforcement attorneys. There are three assistant directors of the Field Division that go around to the different regional offices to see that they are conforming to the policies and rules of the Board and to straighten out difficulties that arise in those offices. In cases which are taken to the courts of appeals under the statute, the employer involved can have the case set for review in the circuit court of appeals nearest to him. So those attorneys have to travel in order to argue in the several judicial circuits.

Mr. ENGEL. In having your men travel by train, don't you lose a lot of time?

Mr. SMITH. We do, particularly when traveling between small towns. In the principal metropolitan centers we do not lose so much time by train, but to the small towns, we do.

Mr. ENGEL. It seems to me that you are wasting manpower there.

USE OF PULLMAN CARS

Mr. HARE. In your travel expense account, do you find that it is necessary for your staff to use Pullman cars to any great extent? Mr. SMITH. That depends on where they are going.

Mr. HARE. Yes; but do you find that they use them to any very great extent? Of course we do not care where they are going or when they are going; but it would be a very easy matter to determine whether or not it is necessary for them to use Pullman cars to any great extent.

Mr. SMITH. They do use them. I suppose that the main argument for using them is that it enables them to save time during the day. Mr. HARE. It increases per diem, too. It saves per diem to them. Mr. SMITH. Some of them do not save anything.

DISCUSSION OF PER DIEMS

Mr. HARE. It strikes me that I would like to have some information as to what extent the people who receive per diem allowances and are in a travel status a great deal of the time, are adjusting themselves

to doing their traveling at night. The Pullman fare does not come out of their per diem?

Mr. SMITH. No; it does not.

Mr. ENGEL. In other words, when they are going across the continent from Washington to San Francisco, which takes about 4 days, they will be drawing per diem for the 4 days, which is supposed to be for hotel and meals, and then they charge their hotel and meals up to the Government in addition?

Mr. REILLY. No; their meals have to come out of the per diem, sir. Mr. ENGEL. Do your field people, as a rule, make overnight trips? Mr. SMITH. There is a good deal of that. Our field people travel in limited areas. The distances between regions in the Northeast, of course, are so small that there probably is not a great deal of Pullman travel. But taking the Atlanta region, for instance, they will go from Atlanta to Birmingham and probably take a sleeper; and when they are traveling in the Southwest, in the Texas region, for instance from Fort Worth to Houston, they will probably take a sleeper. They might not, though, in that case.

Mr. ENGEL. You are ahead just the hotel expense, not the meals?
Mr. SMITH. That is right.

Mr. H. CARL ANDERSEN. Is not that a good deal along the line of the old established custom of padding the expense account?

Mr. SMITH. I do not think so.

Mr. H. CARL ANDERSEN. But actually are they being paid for something which they have not actually paid out?

Mr. SMITH. From our standpoint the alternative is this: If the trip takes say 8 hours, the field man may spend a day in traveling, and he may save a day coming back, or he can travel nights and save 2 days' time; and in planning trips a good deal of attention is paid to saving time, since the employee's daily salary considerably exceeds the per diem allowance.

Mr. REILLY. I think it should be said, Congressman Engel, that the question that you raise goes to the whole heart of the Government travel regulations, which provide that per diem begins when an employee gets on the train, rather than when he arrives at his destination. I presume it is based somewhat upon the theory that it is rather difficult, with hotel rates what they are now, and also Pullman rates, to break even.

Mr. H. CARL ANDERSEN. What is the per diem rate now?

Mr. REILLY. It was increased last year by statute from $5 to $6. Mr. H. CARL ANDERSEN. Of course, this is a general thing, applying to the entire Government. We are not referring to your particular Department here; it is a generalized discussion.

Mr. REILLY. I understand.

SUPPLIES AND MATERIALS

Mr. HARE. What is included under "Supplies and materials," generally?

Mr. WATSON. Supplies and materials include paper, envelopes, twine, pencils, paper clips-if you can get them-and rubber bands the same

Mr. WATSON. Not entirely; no, sir. There are certain items such as subscriptions to periodicals and the maintenance of our truck.

BOOKS AND PERIODICALS

Mr. HARE. How many of these periodicals are there, and what is the character of them?

Mr. WATSON. We have the Congressional Record and the Federal Register, the War Labor Reports, the Labor Relations Reporter, the Supreme Court Reports, the Labor Law Service, and items of that character.

Mr. THOMAS. Lawbooks?

Mr. WATSON. Not lawbooks as periodicals; no, sir.

Mr. THOMAS. Don't you buy lawbooks, too?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; we have authorization for the purchase of them. Mr. THOMAS. What about the Reporter service?

Mr. REILLY. We do subscribe to the Federal Reporter Service.

MISCELLANEOUS EXPENSES (NATIONAL DEFENSE)

Mr. HARE. The next item, on page 24 of the justifications, is the miscellaneous expenses portion of "Salaries and expenses, National Labor Relations Board (national defense)." The appropriation for 1943 is $248,860, and the estimate for 1944 is $243,740, or a decrease of $5,120.

JUSTIFICATIONS OF ESTIMATE

We will insert page 24 of the justifications in the record at this point. (The statement referred to is as follows:)

Miscellaneous expenses portion of "Salaries and expenses, National Labor

NUMBER OF EMPLOYEES CARRIED UNDER NATIONAL DEFENSE

Mr. THOMAS. How many employees of your quota of 796 are carried in national defense?

Mr. REILLY. Approximately 140.

Mr. THOMAS. About 12 or 14 percent of them?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. WATSON. If I may say so, it would be the full number of employees appropriated for in the national defense appropriation, which, I believe, is 114.

I find that the figure is 114 for the field and 28 for the Department, making a total of 142 on national defense salaries.

Mr. HARE. That makes a decrease of how many?

Mr. WATSON. You mean for 1943?

Mr. HARE. Yes.

Mr. WATSON. There is no substantial decrease on national defense miscellaneous expenses, because we have the same amount of money, I believe, or practically the same under that heading. The decrease in number of national defense employees is 8, from 150 to 142. There were 8 field employees taken off. The field dropped from 122 to 114 as between the 1943 and 1944 appropriations.

TRAVEL PERFORMED RY EMPLOYEES UNDER NATIONAL DEFENSE APPROPRIATION

Mr. THOMAS. How many of this crowd travel?

Mr. REILLY. You mean of the 142?

Mr. THOMAS. Yes; the 142. You have a travel item here of $93,500, the same as for 1943. How many of this crowd of 142 travel?

Mr. REILLY. I would say almost all of the field employees, with the exception of the clerical. There are only about 40 of them, so that I would say, of the field employees in that group of 114, it would be safe to say that between 70 and 80 might have occasion to travel. Mr. THOMAS. Are they the trial examiners and attorneys? Mr. REILLY. They are field examiners and attorneys.

Mr. HARE. I note that your expenses in the way of salaries for national defense have decreased by $22,720, a reduction of about 5 percent of your total appropriation. Is there any reason why there should not have been a corresponding decrease in your miscellaneous expenses for national defense? I note that you show a decrease of only about 212 percent.

Mr. REILLY. The items of expense do not necessarily bear an exact ratio to the number of employees, because many of the supplies consist of other things than furniture.

Mr. HARE. But the travel expenses is the same?

Mr. REILLY. That would not bear very much relation to the number of employees, because there would still be the same territory to cover. The only thing that would bring down the travel item, would be a marked diminution in the number of cases.

Mr. HARE. You eliminated eight in the field. Were not most of those people subject to travel?

Mr. REILLY. The field examiners and field attorneys were.

OTHER CONTRACTUAL SERVICES

Mr. THOMAS. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have some information on item 07, "Other contractual services." Will you develop that, Mr. Reilly?

Mr. REILLY. It is set out in some detail on page 16 of the justifications and the following pages.

I think under national defense the only item that can be charged to other contractual services is reporting; but if you will look at the regular appropriation on page 16 you will see some of the other things in the regular appropriation which are listed under that head. It begins on page 16.

NOTARY FEES, SEARCHING DOCUMENTS, ETC.

Mr. THOMAS. You have a small item of $400 for notary fees, searching documents, and so forth. What documents do you search? Mr. REILLY. Occasionally some of these cases involve affidavits, depositions and the certification of court records. Frequentily in some of the corporation cases, there is some difficulty in discovering just who the employer is and corporation records have to be certified. Then occasionally the field attorneys run into cases where there is a suit against a receiver, and copies of the receivership proceedings have to be introduced.

REPORTING

Mr. THOMAS. What fees do you pay for reporting service? Is that by statute or by contract?

Mr. REILLY. It is by contract. It is advertised. The current contract is broken down in detail on page 17.

Mr. ENGEL. That reporting is all contract work?

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.

Mг. THOMAS. At 15 cents a page?

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir; for ordinary copy in Washington.

Mr. THOMAS. Is that in line with other governmental agencies? Mr. REILLY. We had an unusually good break last year, because the contract which was made for the prior year contained an option of renewal. We did advertise to see whether we could not make a more economical contract for 1943, but we discovered that the bids were considerably in excess of the old one. Accordingly we exercised the option of renewal on the old contract.

COST OF REPORTING REPRESENTATION CASES, AS AGAINST COMPLAINT CASES

Mr. THOMAS. Why is the cost so much higher in representation cases than in complaint cases?

Mr. REILLY. The stenographic firms make most of their money by selling transcripts to litigants in the complaints cases.

RENTS AND UTILITY SERVICES

Mr. HARE. How do you account for the difference in the amount paid for rents and utilities under your "Miscellaneous expenses" ap