Just to give an idea-since you left, and I followed you, we have 60 -additional programs. We now have 160 going programs, and I am sure you realize it was difficult

Senator RIBICOFF. I am very sympathetic to your problem. I hope on this Subcommittee on Executive Reorganization before we are through we may be able to.effect some constructive changes.

Secretary CELEBREZZE. I am happy you are looking into it. I think you understand the Department as well as anybody.

Senator RIBICOFF. I do, and I am very sympathetic to what the problems are.

I do appreciate your coming here, Mr. Secretary. We have other witnesses, and I know you have a lot of work to do. Again, I just want to call your attention and the Department's attention to the fact that we have not started these hearings just to have a couple of hearings and forget about this problem. It is the intention of this committee to be a goad for a good many years, and we might be on your back month in and month out.

Senator Montoya, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

INTERDEPARTMENTAL HIGHWAY SAFETY BOARD

Senator MONTOYA. I have about three or four questions.

Mr. Secretary, I gather from the testimony which you have adduced that there is no single coordinating agency with respect to these safety programs, although HEW is in on it

Secretary CELEBREZZE. There is, through interdepartmental committees. When I made that statement, I was talking about the many organizations outside the Government.

Senator MONTOYA. I gathered from your testimony that there are different approaches to safety and accident prevention. Part of these approaches are emanating from the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. But is there one coordinating agency?

Secretary CELEBREZZE. Yes.

Senator MONTOYA. Which is that coordinating agency?

Secretary CELEBREZZE. We have what is referred to as the Interdepartmental Highway Safety Board which is composed of Senator MONTOYA. Who are the members of that agency?

Secretary CELEBREZZE. The Departments of Commerce, Defense, General Services Administration, Health, Education, and Welfare, Interstate Commerce Commission, Labor, and the Post Office.

Senator MONTOYA. But that is only with respect to accident prevention insofar as Government vehicles are concerned, is that correct? Secretary CELEBREZZE. No. It is a total program activity. Senator MONTOYA. When was that agency formulated? Secretary CELEBREZZE. I will refer that to Dr. Joliet.

Dr. JOLIET. It was formulated-I can give you the specific date if I can find it quickly enough-about 5 years ago, and I can supply the specific date for the record if you want. I have it here.

Senator MONTOYA. Has that agency filed any reports anywhere, or disseminated any information as a result of its meetings?

Dr. JOLIET. It has made two reports to the President, sir. One has been put in the President's hands within the last 2 weeks, I would say. Senator MONTOYA. Two reports in 6 years?

Dr. JOLIET. I would not say two reports. My own tenure is so brief that I would hesitate to say how many. I know of two, and the latest one was 2 weeks ago.

Senator MONTOYA. Have any recommendations been made to any other segment of our economy such as the automobile industry, as a result of the meetings of that agency, or that panel?

Dr. JOLIET. Well, the report of the Board to the President was quite extensive. I don't know what action the President has taken on it yet, and until that time, I am somewhat fearful of going into too much detail about the reports.

RESEARCH GRANTS MADE BY HEW

Senator MONTOYA. Will you insert in the record the number of research grants which have been made by HEW, what the particular function of each research grant is, what recommendations have been made as a result of those research grants, and what HEW has done pursuant to any such recommendations, if any have been received? Dr. JOLIET. Yes, sir.

DRIVING SIMULATION

Senator MONTOYA. On page 5 of your statement, Mr. Secretary, you

state:

In February 1961, in cooperation with the Bureau of Public Roads and the Automotive Safety Foundation, the Public Health Service cosponsored a National Conference on Driving Simulation which urged a greatly expanded research effort toward realistic simulation of the driving environment in which, for the first time, all human factors could be studied and preventive measures evaluated without the obvious risk of conducting such study in our crowded streets and highways.

That was urged in 1961. What has specifically been done as a result of this recommendation or determination?

Secretary CELEBREZZE. We have put out information on it, but I will have Dr. Joliet answer it for you.

Dr. JOLIET. Within the funds available, sir, we have been developing two devices that are to study human factors in times of crisis. These will be available in January of next year. These are presently in such state that experiments can and are being conducted on them now, although they are not complete.

Senator MONTOYA. What kind of devices are they?

Dr. JOLIET. We call them simulators, but the name is very confusing, because it means many things to many people. Actually, it is complex laboratory equipment to determine how human beings act. They are not unlike the link trainer for aviators.

Senator MONTOYA. Are they in the manufacturing stage at the present time?

Dr. JOLIET. They won't be manufactured in quantity, only the ones we are interested in, and this is part of the difference-the ones we are interested in are usable for research and would not go into production. Senator MONTOYA. Is that the only thing you have done from that conference to date?

Dr. JOLIET. That is the only thing we have been able to do.

FUNDS USED FOR RESEARCH INTO HUMAN FACTORS AND GRANTS FOR INDIVIDUAL PROJECTS

Senator MONTOYA. Now, on page 7 you state, "At the present time, no less than 75 percent of the approximately $1.7 million used for supporting research grants in accident prevention pays for research primarily into the human factors of the traffic safety problem." Do I understand by this that your average appropriation is $1.7 for research of all types?

Dr. JOLIET. About $44,000 is the average cost of one grant, sir. Maybe I didn't understand your question.

Secretary CELEBREZZE. We will furnish it; I told the chairman I would furnish that for the record and that will be part of what you asked of him. But some of the grants run as low as $4,000, and others run as high as $317,000. The costs vary depending upon the job. When we furnish our complete list of grants we will also give you the amount of the grant.

OVERLAPPING IN THE SAFETY RESEARCH PROGRAM QUESTIONED

Senator MONTOYA. Would you say that other than the specific responsibility of each department to promote safety from the standpoint of its own vehicle operations there is extreme overlapping of any sort in the handling of this safety research program?

Secretary CELEBREZZE. No, I would not say there was overlapping. Senator MONTOYA. I understand that the ICC does some research and some promotion in safety among the interstate carriers. Of course, the CAB does the same thing with respect to the airlines, and perhaps other agencies do likewise.

Secretary CELEBREZZE. Private agencies do likewise, too.

Senator MONTOYA. Has any effort ever been made to try to coordinate all these safety programs under one particular instrumentality of Government?

Secretary CELEBREZZE. Yes, that was your first question. When I read the interdepartmental coordinating bill, the highway program, that was your first question to me. I said that the Department of Commerce, HEW, the Department of Labor, and the Post Office Department are all part of this interagency Committee.

Senator MONTOYA. Does this interagency Committee have an administrative setup, or does it just have representatives of the agencies, and then they funnel out the recommendations to each particular department?

Secretary CELEBREZZE. They operate the same as any interagency coordinating group. They have their meetings and they compare notes and they try to evaluate what they are doing, and what they can use. The Department of Commerce, I understand, takes the leadership in the interagency Committee.

I may also add, that Committee has a staff which is furnished by the Department of Commerce.

Senator MONTOYA. Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

Senator RIBICOFF. Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary.

Mr. Moynihan.

Mr. Moynihan, let us place the statement in the record as if it were read. I know of your work. I know of your interest in the whole

field of traffic safety. You are the former chairman of the New York Traffic Safety Coordinating Committee. You have written widely on the subject, and you have a sophisticated knowledge in this field. You also have an outstanding facility of getting your thoughts across, and I would like the benefit of some of your thinking. Let's consider this statement that went in the record as if it were read, if it is all right with you.

STATEMENT OF DANIEL P. MOYNIHAN, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF LABOR; ACCOMPANIED BY F. A. VAN ATTA, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY, BUREAU OF LABOR STANDARDS; AND FRANK V. CANTWELL, LEGISLATIVE LIAISON OFFICER, DEPARTMENT OF LABOR

(The prepared statement of Mr. Moynihan is as follows:)

EXHIBIT 21

STATEMENT PREPARED BY DANIEL PATRICK MOYNIHAN,

ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF LABOR

MR. CHAIRMAN:

I am Daniel P. Moynihan, Assistant Secretary of Labor for Policy Planning and Research. As you know, I was to have appeared before you in the company of Secretary of Labor Willard Wirtz. Several days ago he cancelled all his engagements here in Washington, and departed for California on urgent government business. As I know this is a disappointment to you, let me also assure you that this is just as great a one for him. If as your hearings continue, an occasion should arise on which you might wish to ask him to appear a second time, I know that he would greatly value the opportunity, such being the importance he attaches to the inquiry on which you are embarked.

For my part I would like to speak about the responsibilities of the Department of Labor in this area, and to add some thoughts which are probably best described as my own, based on an interest in this subject which now goes back a decade. I was one of those whose interest in traffic safety was quickened by your own extraordinary efforts to draw attention to the gravity of the problem when you were Governor of Connecticut.

I was then on the staff of Governor Averell Harriman of New York. On taking office he found, as you were to