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Mr. LITTLE. May I ask you this question, General: As I understand you now, you think this dam would have the primary and most important part in putting an end to these floods. Can you think of any other method that would do it equally as well? General GOETHALS. No.

Mr. LITTLE. Is there any temporary method that has been used yet, that you know of, that has furnished a satisfactory, economical, and safe protection against the flood?

General GOETHALS. No.

Mr. LITTLE. You have thought over that

Mr. RAKER (interposing). There is just one question I want to ask. You are so familiar with these subjects that, while I know my questions are kind of weak in a way

General GOETHALS (interposing). No; they are not.

Mr. RAKER. You know so much about it that the committee wants to get your views and the information you can give us, so that we will have the benefit of it in acting upon this subject

Mr. LITTLE (interposing). Will you excuse me for interrupting. so that I can finish the question I had started? I want to be sure in my own mind about this, as I will have to vote on it soon.

I have got your judgment (which I highly value) in regard to the inadequacy of temporary expedients for defense against floods. which, of course, these people are working at all the time. And I can see that you consider that this is the best way of affording them permanent protection. As a matter of fact, it is the only way of protecting them against floods, is it not?

General GOETHALS. That is right.

Mr. RAKER. The question I was going to ask was this: Have you and these splendid engineers of the Reclamation Service ever sat down together and gone over the relative benefits and values of the rock filled dam and the concrete dam?

General GOETHALS. No.

Mr. LITTLE. When I came in this afternoon, I heard you discussing the possible defects in concrete work; and, of course, in a crude way, I can see what you mean. Is there anything more to be said besides what you have said that is known to science or experience?

me

General GOETHALS. No. The Bureau of Standards made a number of experiments down on the Panama Canal, in our mass masonry there in the locks, to see if they could determine s thing of what was taking place during the setting process: they never arrived at any satisfactory conclusion.

but

Mr. LITTLE. Is there any rule by which they can determine ho long it takes the thing to settle before you are sure it is all right Or might a defect develop a long time afterward?

General GOETHALS. You know when it will take an initial set; that is about all you know. What is taking place on the interior of the mass nobody knows; it is a chemical mass that you are dealing with: so that it will develop heat throughout the mass.

Mr. LITTLE. It might stand for a long time!

General GOETHALS. It might stand for a long time and not thoroughly set throughout to the core.

The CHAIRMAN. How wide is the base of the dam-that is, up and down the river?

General Goethals. About 2,500 feet.

Mr. CLARK. You mean the rock fill?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; the rock fill: it would extend out below the dam as well as above it.

General GOETHALS. Above the center, yes; above the crest, yes. The CHAIRMAN. If there are no other questions we will hear Mr. Stetson. General, we appreciate your coming here and the information you have given us.

General GOETHALS. Not at all. I always like to appear before these congressional committees; it takes me back to the old daysespecially when I have no personal axe to grind.

TESTIMONY OF MR. G. HENRY STETSON, OF PHILADELPHIA, PA.

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)

The CHAIRMAN. Will you state your full name and residence? Mr. STETSON. G. Henry Stetson, 1005 Land Title Building, Philadelphia.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you wish to make a statement. Mr. Stetson? Mr. STETSON. No; I have none to make.

Mr. HAYDEN. During the last Congress you appeared before the committee with Mr. Clark, advocating a proposal that, instead of passing the Swing-Johnson bill as it was then pending, Congress should enact legislation to guarantee interest on certain bonds to be issued for the construction of a dam by you at Boulder Canyon. Are you still advocating that plan, or has there been any change in the financial arrangement since that time?

Mr. STETSON. As to the financial plan, we have been considering a change in the method of handling it. We have not yet completed the whole thing. We have not as yet a proposal to put before you. Mr. HAYDEN. Then you have no definite suggestion to make to the committee in opposition to the bill that is pending? You are merely opposed to it?

Mr. STETSON. No; not opposed to it, but Mr. Clark has another plan, which I suppose he wants to present: do you, Mr. Clark? Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. HAYDEN. IS your application still pending before the Federal Power Commission for the Boulder Canyon site?

Mr. STETSON. Yes.

Mr. HAYDEN. In that application you proposed to proceed under the Federal water power act, without any subsidy from the Federal Government?

Mr. STETSON. Yes; but with the reservation in the application. Mr. HAYDEN. You still have that application pending before the Federal Power Commission in good faith?

Mr. STETSON. Yes; it is still there.

Mr. HAYDEN. And if granted by the Federal Power Commission, you will proceed under it?

Mr. STETSON. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. Is it your opinion that you should be given the right to construct that dam rather than that the Government should build it?

Mr. STETSON. That is a pretty hard question to answer. I have gone in and filed the application and asked for a license. If they

give it to me I want to complete it. If the Government wants to build it. it is up to them.

Mr. RAKER. You would not put up any obstruction in any way Mr. STETSON. Absolutely not.

Mr. RAKER (continuing). To the Government passing proper legislation and proceeding to build the dam. even if you lost it? Mr. STETSON. Absolutely not!

Mr. RAKER. But if the Government does not do it, and do it quite rapidly, you would like to have the opportunity?

Mr. STETSON. I would.

Mr. RAKER. And do you think you can carry it out?

Mr. STETSON. I do.

Mr. RAKER. And make it a success?

Mr. STETSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. REKER. Under the Federal water power act?

Mr. STETSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HAYDEN. I did not understand that to be the situation when you appeared before the committee last year. I thought that you were then asking for supplemental legislation by Congress, which would embody everything contained in the Federal water power act, with an additional guarantee by the Government of interest on a certain portion of the money during the period of construction? Mr. STETSON. That is right.

Mr. HAYDEN. Do I understand now that you are willing to proceed under the Federal water power act, without any Government guarantee?

Mr. STETSON. Yes: without any guaranty of principal, only interest.

Mr. HAYDEN. Has the application that you have pending before the Federal Power Commission been modified as suggested by General Goethals?

Mr. STETSON. No, sir.

Mr. HAYDEN. With respect to the height of the dam, or otherwise? Mr. STETSON. No; it is just as we filed it before. We would want to do that.

Mr. HAYDEN. Undoubtedly you would have an opportunity to amend your application. Have the engineers of the Federal Power Commission given you any intimation as to whether they approve or disapprove of your plan?

Mr. STETSON. Absolutely none.

Mr. HAYDEN. I understand that, under the Federal water power act, you must show to the satisfaction of the commission, first, that you have a feasible engineering scheme for the development of power.

Mr. STETSON. Yes.

Mr. HAYDEN. Then you must show that you have the financial ability to carry it out.

Mr. STETSON. Yes; I understand that.

Mr. HAYDEN. I am anxious to know whether the engineers of the Federal, Power Commission had passed upon the feasibility of a rock-fill dam at Boulder Canyon?

Mr. STETSON. No; they have not, so far as I know.

Mr. RAKER. Might I use just a little bit of gossip in asking you a couple of questions?

Mr. STETSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. Is there anything in the statement that is floating around in the Southwest, that you have participated in having many, many mining claims located up the river so as to prevent the Government from utilizing the land?

Mr. STETSON. We have filed on some mining claims up there, but it was before it was withdrawn by the Government. Below Boulder Canyon I have some placer claims that were filed on before there was any action contemplated by the Government building a dam, or anybody else. We are drilling that property now. Mr. RAKER. Does that have anything to do

Mr. STETSON. It has nothing to do with Boulder Canyon.

Mr. RAKER (continuing). With the statement it was to prevent or delay the Government?

Mr. STETSON. Absolutely not. That is not in connection with Boulder Canyon. It is below, about 12 miles below the proposed site. If the Government built at Black Canyon it would flood our property, but at Boulder it does not.

Mr. RAKER. If you have valid claims there, whatever they are worth, they could be condemned?

Mr. STETSON. Oh, absolutely.

Mr. RAKER. But you did not file for the purpose of having any effect upon the Government?

Mr. STETSON. Absolutely not. We took those claims out about 8 years ago.

Mr. RAKER. Now, just a little more gossip. Wtih the air so open, as it is these days you know, you hear a good many things, and is there anything in the statement that you have expended about $150,000 in Arizona and that territory for the purpose of urging or assisting the private corporations in the direction of the Government's constructing the dani at Boulder Canyon?

Mr. STETSON. No; not at all.

Mr. RAKER. Have you spent any money in that line down in that country at all?

Mr. STETSON. Absolutely not. I am not representing any corporation; I am just representing myself.

Mr. RAKER. You will pardon me for asking those questions; but, because you are on the stand, I wanted to know from your own lips as to the facts of the matter.

Mr. STETSON. Yes.

Mr. LITTLE. As the gentleman speaks of Black Canyon and Boulder Canyon, do you know they use the names together?

Mr. STETSON. I understand the Reclamation Service do now, that they call Boulder Canyon both sites.

Mr. HAYDEN. Upper and lower sites?

Mr. STETSON. Upper and lower sites.

Mr. LITTLE. Which one of them are you speaking of, that you thought

Mr. STETSON. Thought might flood our property?

Mr. LITTLE. Yes.

Mr. STETSON. That was the lower site.

Mr. LITTLE. The Black Canyon?

Mr. STETSON. The Black Canyon.

Mr. RAKER. Have you sent any money down in that country for any purpose, to let the fellows use it for what they wanted to? Mr. STETSON. Not yet, and I do not intend to.

Mr. HAYDEN. How much have you spent in your investigation of power on the Colorado River?

Mr. STETSON. About $300,000.

Mr. HAYDEN. From your own personal funds?

Mr. STETSON. My own personal money.

Mr. HAYDEN. And the application before the Federal Power Commission is in your own name?

Mr. STETSON. It is in my own name.

Mr. HAYDEN. It is not for any company?

Mr. STETSON. Absolutely no.

Mr. HAYDEN. And, if any legislation were passed by Congress, it would be for your benefit?

Mr. STETSON. It would be for my benefit.

Mr. HAYDEN. You would be somewhat like Henry Ford in respect to Muscle Shoals?

Mr. STETSON. Something like that; but not exactly. [Laughter.] Mr. LEATHERWOOD. You would not want the people to guarantee the 8 per cent on the investment?

Mr. STETSON. I would not mean for them to do it, but it would be all right.

Mr. HAYDEN. What are the principal items of the $300.000 you have expended?

Mr. STETSON. Engineering.

Mr. HAYDEN. How long have you had an engineering organiza

tion?

Mr. STETSON. For seven years, I have had engineers on the ground there. And consulting engineers, besides.

Mr. RAKER. So you, in your judgment, after consulting your engineers who have been working on it for some seven years, and gathering all the data that they can

Mr. STETSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER (continuing). Have come to the conclusion that a dam in Boulder Canyon is feasible and practicable?

Mr. STETSON. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. You want it if you can get it?

Mr. STETSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. So that the only question now, it looks like, is who should construct it?

Mr. STETSON. Absolutely; that is all.

Mr. SWING. Is the height or plan for that dam that you have outlined here before the committee the same as you presented to the Water Power Commission?

Mr. STETSON. I did not get that.

Mr. SWING. Is the plan for the dam that you have set out in your application before the Federal Power Commission the same engineering plan as has been proposed here?

Mr. STETSON. No. This lowers the dam and our figures have been changed. That other one called for a 1,204-foot dam. This is a thousand and four.

Mr. RAKER. There is a change in the style of the dams?

Mr. STETSON. No; no change in the style.

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