board meetings to consider the various phases of the problem, especially in reference to types of dams and methods of construction and cost and all that sort of thing. They were outside of our regular engineering force.

Mr. SWING. I want to take first the inside of your regular force. What force of engineers has contributed to this report which you are now submitting?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Mr. Walker Young, who is present to-day, has had charge of the investigations in Boulder Canyon for about three and a half years. Mr. Young had more to do than anybody else in the actual working out of the detailed designs and estimates, but he at all times had the advice of our chief designing engineer, Mr. J. L. Savage, whose headquarters are in Denver, and also of the whole designing force of that office.

Mr. SWING. How many engineers are in Mr. Savage's office?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Mr. Savage has under his charge about 25 or 30 engineers of all kinds.

Mr. SWING. Who else?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. In addition to that, we have had the assistance of Mr. Gaylord, who was until very recently our chief electrical engineer, and his assistants, and Mr. Dibble and his assistants. Mr. Dibble succeeded Mr. Gaylord in the last few months. And in the study of the water supply, the irrigable areas, and the control of the river for flood or for power purposes Mr. Debbler, who is here today, has made most of those studies.

Mr. SWING. Now, in addition to that, what other nonofficials have collaborated in the investigation of the sites outside of your immediate bureau?

Mr. WEYMUTH. The Geological Survey has considerable data relating to stream flow and topography.

Mr. SWING. Will you give the names of those who have been on the ground and to what extent they have studied it?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Well, I am not entirely familiar with the extent of their studies, but Mr. Larue has been studying the Colorado River problem for a great many years, and he has made at least two trips down the river."

Mr. SWING. I referred principally to the geologists.

Mr. WEYMOUTH. In our service?

Mr. SWING. Are they in your service?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. We had Mr. Ransome, a geologist of the Geological Survey, make a very exhaustive geologic examination and report on the Boulder Canyon Reservoir and dam site, and Mr. Jenison, of the Geological Survey, also assisted him. The Bureau of Standards has done a lot of work for the service in testing materials for construction. There is another man that I forgot to mention, a very valuable engineer and geologist, Mr. Homer Hamlin. The most work that has been done perhaps was done by Mr. Arthur P. Davis while he was the director of the service.

Mr. SWING. Do the findings and the reports of the geologists, Ransome, Jenison, Homer Hamline, corroborate and fit into your report?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Yes, sir.

Mr. SWING. Now, what about this consulting board. You mentioned Mr. A. J. Wiley and Mr. Louis Hill. Was there anyone else consulted?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Well, we have utilized our regular force a great deal; Mr. James Munn, who was formerly a contractor and is, perhaps, one of the best construction men in the country. We have had his advice, especially in reference to unit costs that we have used in the estimates.

Mr. SWING. Now, has this advisory board considered your general scheme-your general plan?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Yes, sir.

Mr. SWING. Have they give it their approval-the general method of developing the river?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. We have considered with them each step that we have taken as it came up and it has had their approval.

Mr. SWING. It has had their approval?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Which board is that?

Mr. SWING. That is the Wiley, Hill, and Munn board.

Mr. WEYMOUTH. And Mr. Savage, our chief designing engineer. Mr. SWING. And Mr. Gaylord?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. And Mr. Gaylord and Mr. Dibble.

Mr. SWING. Now, what would you say to the proposal that nothing ought to be done until the river had been completely investigated and the sites located so that they could be developed in harmony with each other! You started to make your statement a while ago when Judge Raker was cross-examining you. Has that been done in a practical way up to the present time?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. I think so; fully. I think we have plenty of information now or sufficient information now to justify a conclusion as to where development on the river should begin. One can always think of investigations to be carried on indefinitely, because the river and its basin are so large and there are so many possibilities that one can always think of something else that might be investigated.

Mr. SWING. If you were spending the money of a private corporation which was seeking to locate the best place to solve the river problem, would you recommend to the board of directors of the private corporation the expenditure of more money to gather more data than what you have now, or would you advise them to act upon the data which is now collected?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. I would advise them to act on the data that we have.

Mr. SWING. Now, Mr. Weymouth, you have known that river for a good many years and you have been up and down its length. Is there a flood problem on that river?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. There surely is.

Mr. SWING. Is there a serious problem?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Yes, sir.

Mr. SWING. Is it an urgent problem?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. I believe it is; Yes, sir.

Mr. SWING. Is it one that can be deferred without danger of serious loss of property and possibly life?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. No, sir.

Mr. SWING. You do feel that Congress, if it wants to solve this problem, ought to begin acting at once?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Then you think we should proceed without any reference to the ratification of the Colorado River compact? Mr. SWING. May I finish? You may ask consent that that question be always considered as pending.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. You may rest assured that we are going to put the witnesses on record before we get through with them.

Mr. WEYMOUTH. While I am not a lawyer and my opinion on this subject probably is not worth much, I think you can write a provision into the law to protect everybody.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. That is what I was trying to get at a while ago, Mr. Weymouth. Now, do you base that upon your judgment of the law or upon the judgment of the law by the department?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. I can not state the legal opinion of the department, because I do not know what the legal views of the department are.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. That is all.

Mr. SWING. Assuming that every bit of the 100,000 acre-feet of silt that is in the river at the point of Boulder Dam stayed in the reservoir, it would take it 300 years to fill, and assuming that you had a 30,000,000 acre-foot capacity, after it was filled, would the use of the dam be destroyed for power?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Not for power.

Mr. SWING. Or diminished in any other way?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. No, sir; not for power.

Mr. SWING. It would not?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. No, sir.

Mr. SWING. With reference to Bulls Head, which you said could be used to regulate the difference between the use of agriculture and possible needs for power or flood control, or the variations between, as far as agriculture is concerned, until the upper States make a quite complete use of the 7,500,000 acre-feet that is allotted to them under the compact, there would be enough surplus that would nicely adjust, and the stream would not be called for a considerable period of time after Boulder Canyon would be built, if it could be built in the next 10 years. In other words, you would not have to build Bulls Head to safeguard agriculture on the lower streams for probably 20 or 25 or more years?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. That is correct.

Mr. SWING. But when there had been a complete development of the upper basin and the lower basin so that the water had to be utilized to a nicety, then you could build Bulls Head and it would regulate the stream more accurately and also develop power?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Yes, sir. That is the purpose of the Bulls Head Reservoir, to reregulate the stream when the river was about

Mr. SWING (interposing). But you do not offer it as a part of an immediate plan, or if Boulder Canyon was built, you would not have to build Bulls Head for a considerable number of years?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. No; it would be a great many years.

Mr. RAKER. You would have enough bull in the meantime. Just let me ask you this question.

Mr. SWING. I have not quite finished.

Mr. RAKER. I beg your pardon.

Mr. SWING. Now, you have given a pretty fair comparison between Glenn Canyon and Black Canyon, and that is set out in great detail in your report?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Yes, sir.

Mr. SWING. Would you go into the question of Topock just a little further as to the advantages for and against Topock! Have you that available?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Yes, sir. The Topock site has the advantage of being slightly nearer to the land than Black Canyon but there are no streams coming in between, so I think that advantage is only slight.

Mr. SWING. What is the economic height of Topock as a flood control?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Well, that could only be utilized as a flood control reservoir and that could be built for 10,000,000 acre feet capacity, provided it is found that the foundation conditions are satisfactory, and we know nothing about that now, except at the point where the Santa Fe crosses the river, where it is between 80 and 90 feet to bed rock there. But the river is very wide there and our observation is, taking into account the condition of the river in a location of that kind, that when the river narrows up the rock is found at a greater depth. That is the situation at the Topock site. We do not know how deep bed rock is there except it is in all probability deeper than where the Santa Fe Railroad crosses the river just above. Mr. SWING. Is it your opinion that a 10,000,000 acre feet reservoir is the highest that could be built economically?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Practically so; yes, sir.

Mr. SWING. Assuming that it is, don't you know that there has passed at that point in 60 days more than 11,000,000 acre feet of water, according to the records of the Government?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. I think that is correct.

Mr. SWING. Then if that is so, Topock is a 10,000,000 acre feet capacity. In order to make it serve as flood protection, immediately the flood was passed, it would have to be emptied so as to be prepared to catch the next flood whenever it might come?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Oh, yes, indeed.

Mr. SWING. Then the violent fluctuation of the head in the reservoir would make it impossible to develop any power at that place, would it not?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Well, a small amount of power could be developed there. Whether it would be feasible to do that, I do not know of my own knowledge, but a small amount of power could be developed there.

Mr. SWING. Well, it would be quite small?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. Yes; quite small.

Mr. SWING. And relative to the cost, it would be insignificant? Mr. WEYMOUTH. Yes; it would be very expensive.

Mr. SWING. Now, you have made similar comparisons, I understand, between the Black Canyon and all other sites on the river, that is, all sites that, are known and on which you have data, and

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also between Black Canyon and other combinations, and it is your opinion as the Chief Engineer of the Reclamation Service and of your organization and of your consulting engineers, that Black Canyon is the most valuable and most economic site to solve the problem of the Colorado River for the first construction unit? Mr. WEYMOUTH. Yes, sir.

Mr. SWING. That is all.

Mr. WEYMOUTH. There is one thing I wish to say in reference to the site at Topock, or the Mojave site, that is sometimes lost sight of, and that is this. Before a dam can be built there at all the Santa Fe Railroad, about 20 miles of double track must be moved, and they have a division point in the town of Needles, and about 20 miles of sidings in that town.

Mr. SWING. Can you estimate roughly about how much that might cost?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. It would cost at least $8,500,000 to get the Santa Fe Railways property out of the reservoir and then after that the town of Needles must be moved, so that even if the foundation conditions of the site are found to be very favorable, at best that would be very expensive.

Mr. RAKER. Now, comparing the construction of irrigation works. dams and so forth, by the Reclamation Service with that of private enterprise and corporations during the same periods, has that of the Reclamation Service been as efficient and cheap as that by such private construction enterprise?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. I think it has been cheaper.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Upon what do you base that comparison, Mr. Weymouth?

Mr. WEYMOUTH. On my personal observations and upon statements of engineers that are familiar with those matters, that are employed largely outside of the service.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will take a recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon when we will hear General Goethals.

(Thereupon at 12.45 o'clock p. m., the committee took a recess until 2 o'clock p. m.)

AFTER RECESS

The committee reassembled at 2 o'clock p. m.

The CHAIRMAN. We will now hear General Goethals.

TESTIMONY OF GEN. GEORGE GOETHALS, UNITED STATES ARMY, RETIRED, CONSULTING ENGINEER, NEW YORK CITY

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)

The CHAIRMAN. General Goethals, do you wish to make a general statement first?

General GOETHALS. No, sir. As I told you, I was brought into this by Mr. Clark, a consulting engineer, relative to a dam that he was going to build, or suggested building, at Boulder Canyon. I have gone over those documents, and I have gone over his calculations.

Mr. HAYDEN. Has there been any change in the design of the dam since Mr. Clark testified before this committee in 1923?

General GOETHALS. Yes, sir; they have lowered the dam 220 feet.