proper regulations and restrictions, by a private company, than to have it done by the Government, as Mr. West suggested in his report this morning

Mr. SWING (interposing). And would be better for your company also?

Mr. PHIPPS. Do you know, really, Mr. Swing, I do not think it would make so very much difference, so far as our company is concerned. But I do think it would be very much better for the United States as a whole.

Mr. RAKER. Then, taking the policies of the companies and from your information as a member of the board of directors, it is that the Government should not attempt to enter into this kind of development, but should leave it to be done, under the Federal water power act, by private individuals or private concerns?

Mr. PHIPPS. I think, Mr. Raker, that as long as those private companies would be restricted as to the rates they should charge, and as they would have to conduct their business under proper Government or State regulatory bodies, which I believe, out in California, even tells how high our poles and wires should be above the ground-that is how high the wires should be above the groundand tells us what color to paint the cross arm-that as long as this could be done without going into the Federal Treasury for an ap-. propriation, it would be saving the taxpayers of the United States as a whole just exactly that much money; and particularly as, under the Federal water power act, I believe the Federal Government has the right of condemnation, and it also has the development returned to it at the end of a stated period.

Mr. RAKER. So that the position of those speaking for your companies, as Mr. West has (confirmed by your statement) is that the attitude of your companies-and I want just to get the attitude-is that, from all view points, as they look at it now, the Government should not enter into this kind of activities, as provided in the pending legislation?

Mr. PHIPPS. Well, if somebody else would do it for them, under regulation, with restrictions as to the prices they shall charge, and regulation as to the securities that would be issued, I should think that it would be unnecessary for the Government to do it.

Mr. SWING. And your company is one of those which is desirous of developing the river, or participating in the development of the river, as you have suggested?

Mr. PHIPPS. I think Mr. West said that he would be glad to see the Government develop the river.

Mr. SWING. As your second choice?

Mr. PHIPPS. In case it was not developed in some other way.

Mr. SWING. Well, you know the offer made in December, 1921, at San Diego, Calif., before the Secretary of the Interior-that your company stated it desired to participate in the Southern California Edison plan, and contribute capital and receive a pro rata share of the power development; and you heard Mr. West make the same statement here, did you not?

Mr. PHIPPS. Oh. I think that is in the record.

Mr. SWING. That is what I say. Your company is desirous of taking part in the. developments of power on the river?

Mr. PHIPPS. We are interested more, I believe, in having an allocation of some part of that power, in order to provide for the needs of the territory that we now serve.

Mr. SWING. Certainly.

Mr. PHIPPS (continuing). Which would be purchased by rates fixed by some regulatory body; and it would be sold at rates fixed by that body that would probably allow us a small margin of profit. Mr. RAKER. Your people are concerned in legislation of this kind, whereby a block of power, say, 600,000 horsepower, might be generated, for the reason that, coming on to the market, it would come in competition with the various organizations that are now in existence and that would continue in existence, and thereby either injure you materially by the reduction of price or the loss of custom, or possibly put you out of business, or else make it so low that the Government could not recoup its expenditures. And is it for those reasons that you people have taken the position that you have—that the Government should not thus construct an enterprise as contemplated by the present legislation?

Mr. PHIPPS. I think that a very similar question was asked Mr. West this morning, and I think that he explained that it probably would be rather impractical for the Federal Government, or anybody else (and not very good business for them) to go out and build transmission lines and local distribution lines and try to take all of our customers away from us. And we have been pioneering, Mr. Raker, in a territory that is very sparsely settled; customers are many miles apart; and probably it would be very poor business judg ment for a private corporation, or for anybody else who was in it, from the standpoint of "getting their bait back," to try to parallel our lines. Mr. West answered that this morning, I think.

Mr. RAKER. I wanted to get your view, in addition to that of Mr. West, you know; just to see whether you would corroborate him, or whether there might be a difference in the board of directors.

Mr. PHIPPS. Well, I had not seen Mr. West for about a year, I think it is; so that we have not had much chance to have any differences. [Laughter.]

The CHAIRMAN. What is the pleasure of the committee as to adjourning now?

Mr. RAKER. Just one question, Mr. Chairman. That boy is all right, and I want to ask him one more question.

I think this is conceded on all sides--and I want to see if you will not agree to this: That this development ought to go ahead on the Colorado River.

Mr. PHIPPS. Well, now, may I make a suggestion

Mr. RAKER (interposing). I will put it this way, "a development "?

Mr. PHIPPS. Now, might I make just a little suggestion along that line?

Mr. RAKER. Yes: I would appreciate it if you would.

Mr. PHIPPS. I think that there is not anything as dangerous as spending your money before you know where you are going to spend it, and what you are going to get out of it in the world, except, perhaps, some grafter.

Now, if I were one of you gentlemen passing an appropriation bill for any development at any place, on any stream. I would have

the thing most thoroughly investigated, in all phases, by the best engineers that could be retained; and I think that in the Government Reclamation Service and in the Army, you have probably got as good engineers as there are in the world. And that after their conclusions have been presented, then you can save, not merely a few per cent on the total investment, but you may save the total sum of money that might be appropriated for a project.

Mr. SWING. Well, assume that that has all been done

Mr. RAKER (interposing). I wanted to ask just one more question-yes, you are all right; you know how to handle yourself. [Laughter.]

Now, assuming that the Army engineers, and the Reclamation engineers, and the engineers of the power companies, while having separate investigations, as well as joint investigations, and having each been able to obtain the information that the others have published as to the development of the Colorado River: Is it not your view that it has practically been determined that it ought to be started, and that it is justifiable, so far as the cost is concerned, and that it is feasible, and that power would be developed from it that would justify the construction as proposed?

Mr. PHIPPS. I have not studied the question enough to give an intelligent answer to that.

Mr. RAKER. All right, Mr. Phipps.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Phipps, we appreciate your presence, and the information you have given us.

(Thereupon, at 5.25 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until Thursday, March 20, 1924, at 10 o'clock a. m.)

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

COMMITTEE ON IRRIGATION AND RECLAMATION,

Thursday, March 20, 1924.

The committee met at 10 o'clock a. m., Hon. Addison T. Smith (chairman) presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. We had expected this morning to hear General Goethals, but, as he wishes to be excused until 2 o'clock, we will hear Mr. Weymouth, chief engineer of the Reclamation Service.

Mr. SWING. I wonder, just before that, in connection with the testimony given here, might I be permitted to read two short extracts into the record, one of them with reference to the question of overproduction in agriculture. I take this from the morning Washington Post:

CITIES LURE 1,000,000 MORE FROM FARMS

CHICAGO, March 19.-Since last year another 1,000,000 persons left the farms for the cities, the Sears-Roebuck Agricultural Foundation reported to-day, adding that the population has increased during the same time about 1,400,000, which means there are 2,400,000 more persons to feed and 1,000,000 less food producers.

"This condition," the report says, "warrants industrial and commercial leaders doing something definite and concrete to help the farmer to get on his feet."

Mr. RAKER. What conclusion do you draw from that, Mr. Swing?

Mr. SWING. I leave it to the committee to draw its own conclusions.

Mr. RAKER. I know; but that is hardly fair for the witness.

Mr. SWING. I am not going to debate it. I ask leave to read this report from the Brawley (Calif.) News, of March 7, entitled "Investigator from mysterious source appears on scene":

EL CENTRO, March 7.-A sauve neatly dressed gentleman who declined to give either his name or that of his employer looked over the records of the tax assessor's office at the courthouse to find if Dr. George A. Hartman and Elmer W. Heald are taxpayers of record in Imperial County. The gentleman found that they have been assessed for personal property, but as they both have $1,000 exemption because they are veterans of the World War they do not pay into the treasury at this time any money. The State has decided that they paid their taxes for life during 1917 and 1918.

It happens that these are the two representatives of the American Legion now in Washington supporting the Swing-Johnson bill and they are particularly aggressive as to the merits of the all-American canal. The investigating gentleman came from Los Angeles.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Weymouth, we will be glad to hear you. I think we all know you; but, for the record, you might state your full name and your position.

STATEMENT OF MR. F. E. WEYMOUTH, CHIEF ENGINEER OF THE RECLAMATION SERVICE

Mr. WEYMOUTH. F. E. Weymouth, chief engineer of the Bureau of Reclamation.

In 1920, under the Kinkaid Act, the Secretary of the Interior was instructed to investigate the irrigation possibilities in the Imperial Valley and further development in that valley, including storage, on the Colorado River. The reason why it was necessary to investigate storage on the Colorado River, is due to the fact that the water supply is all now used during the low-water period and, to have further development in the Imperial Valley, storage will be required. Since the so-called Fall-Davis report was made, we have been continuing the investigations in the basin, first, as to the number of acres that it will probably be possible to irrigate in the upper valley, above Lee's Ferry and, also, the area that it may be possible to irrigate below that point. We have also made quite an exhaustive study of the matter of control of the river for floods, the amount of storage that will be required for irrigation in both the upper and lower valleys, and the possibilities of power development. We have also investigated various alternative schemes for storage in the basin. not only for flood control, but for irrigation and for power. Those various alternative schemes, that we have investigated, would total something over $700,000,000.

Now, out of those various alternative schemes, what we have selected and have set out in the report which I recently submitted, amounts to about $130,000,000. That is for the dam on the river, the power plant and transmission lines, exclusive of the all-American canal. That is for $130.000.000 a reservoir can be built to control the flood to store water for all irrigation requiriments below and not interfere with irrigation above and develop sufficient power to retain the cost of the reservoir and power system. We have gone into great detail in our investigations during the past two years and have gath

ered a great deal of engineering data that we did not have at the time of the so-called Davis-Fall report. We have written up our findings in eight volumes, and, in the first part of each of the volumes, which the committee has, we have summarized the findings on the subject in that particular volume. In volume 1, I have attempted to summarize everything we have worked on; I have written a synopsis of about fifteen or twenty pages for volume 1, which gives the essential points in our particular studies, and it would save time, perhaps, for all, if I would read that fifteen or twenty pages into the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. WEYMOUTH. In 1920, by the provisions of the Kinkaid Act (41 Stat. 600) Congress authorized and directed an examination and report by the Secretary of the Interior on the condition and possible irrigation development of the Imperial Valley in California. The act provided that this report was to include the feasibility of providing storage for these lands and the effect of such storage on irrigation development elsewhere in the basin. Pursuant to this authorization, funds were provided in the Sundry Civil Appropriation Act for the fiscal year 1921 (41 Stat. 915) for the Government's share of this investigation. Subsequent appropriation acts for the fiscal years 1923 and 1924 have extended the scope of the studies by providing appropriations:

For the continued investigation of the feasibility of irrigation, water storage, and related problems on the Colorado River, and investigation of the water sources of said river.

The results of these investigations thus provided for to the end of the calendar year 1921 were submitted to Congress in a report by the Secretary of the Interior dated February 28, 1922, and published under the title "Problems of Imperial Valley and Vicinity." (Sen. Doc. No. 142, 67th Cong., 2d sess.):

The present report contains the later results of the investigations executed pursuant to the above authorization under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior by the Chief Engineer of the Bureau of Reclamation. It brings the record of the work up to date through the completion of the two seasons field work since the publication of Senate Document No. 142 and includes as well the results of the office studies, plans, and estimate based thereupon.

SUMMARY OF PROBLEMS

The Colorado River is one of our great national resources. It drains an area of 244,000 square miles, one-thirteenth of the area of the United States south of the Canadian boundary. It comprises within its basin parts of seven States and of the Republic of Mexico. Its development is therefore a matter not only of interstate but of international concern. The navigability of the stream, which while of little practical value at present has been recognized by treaty, and the large areas of desert public land that can be irrigated from its surplus waters, add features of national interest. Taken singly or together, such are the magnitude and scope of the problems involved that they challenge the best efforts of engineer and of statesman.

The development of the agricultural possibilities of the basin through irrigation has already made notable progress. Under the ditches of the Imperial Irrigation District alone over 400,000 acres are now under ditch, constituting the largest single irrigation project in the United States. Government projects and private developments throughout the basin have been extended until there are now 2,000,000 acres irrigated from the waters of the main stream in the United States and 190,000 in Mexico. In the lower basin, development has already reached a point, where, at times, the entire low water flow of the river is diverted for irrigation.