Mr. MEANS. Yes; with power at 1 cent a kilowatt hour down there, it would cost you a little less than 2 cents per acre-foot of lift. You can lift that water for about $3 an acre-foot that 200 feet, and with specialized crops, you can afford to pay that.

Mr. HAYDEN. If they can impose a charge for water of $10 per acre in the Imperial Valley, where the climate and soil are somewhat similar, the costs on the Arizona side would be just as reasonable, would they not?

Mr. MEANS. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, the cost of water in southern California is about $12 per acre-foot at the present time. The CHAIRMAN. Per acre-foot?

Mr. MEANS. $12 per acre-foot; I am not including the Imperial Valley in that.

Mr. SWING. Will you repeat that, please?

Mr. MEANS. The cost of water in southern California is about $12 per acre-foot at the present time, outside of Imperial Valley.

Mr. HAYDEN. That land is probably used for growing dranges and lemons and grapefruit?

Mr. MEANS. Yes, sir; that is what they are doing.

Mr. HAYDEN. Of course, you can not figure on devoting the whole 600,000 acres to citrus fruit; you could not find a market for it. And the farmers can not pay $8 an acre-foot for growing alfalfa. Mr. MEANS. Well, they pay $6 an acre-foot for water to grow alfalfa.

Mr. HAYDEN. And it takes about three acre-feet.

Mr. MEANS. Well, they say they use more than that; I think it takes between three and four. Of course, that is an unusual condition, near a city.

Mr. HAYDEN. What do you think of the proposal to tunnel from the Colorado River to the Big Sandy, and bringing the water out that way?

Mr. MEANS. That was too costly.

Mr. HAYDEN. The figure given by the Arizona Engineering Commission was $225 per acre.

Mr. MEANS. Yes; and it is a tremendous venture. These big things fail on account of their tremendous size, particularly if you have to pay interest on the period of development. You can take a small irrigation development and develop it rather rapidly; but a big one is a matter of years and years of development; and if you pay the interest on the cost of the uncompleted part of your construction you are "busted" before you start.

Mr. HAYDEN. Have you made any study at all of the proposal that, instead of digging a tunnel from the Colorado River to the Big Sandy, to carry the water around the mountains and accomplish the same thing?

Mr. MEANS. There is not enough data on that to form any definite conclusion.

Mr. HAYDEN. What would be your idea of the cost of canal construction in a mountainous country, across ranges?

Mr. MEANS. Very difficult; very costly work.

Mr. HAYDEN. Have you had any experience of that kind?

Mr. MEANS. Yes, sir; it is very costly work.

Mr. HAYDEN. What are the factors that make it so costly?

Mr. MEANS. The fact that you must usually concrete the whole line of the canal, to prevent breaks occurring; the cost of constructing siphons, flumes, and so on; and the fact that you usually get a great deal of rock under those conditions.

Mr. HAYDEN. Rock in which you have to excavate the canal?

Mr. MEANS. To excavate the canal, yes. All of that adds very much to the cost. And the maintenance on those high bench lines is costly.

Mr. HAYDEN. We had some testimony before this committee, by Mr. Mulholland, with respect to the necessity for acquiring a domestic water supply for the city of Los Angeles; and at the time that he testified he mentioned the fact that the Reclamation Service, in cooperation with the city of Los Angeles, had made an investigation.

I have a report here, by Mr. Harold Conklin, in which he discusses the possibility of acquiring a water supply for the city of Los Angeles from the Mono Basin, and from the upper reaches of Owens River. Have you made any investigation in that regard?

Mr. MEANS. I have. Some time last fall the city of Los Angeles took up negotiations with the Southern Sierras Power Co., for the purchase of waters from the company. The company, through one of its subsidiaries, owns a large amount of irrigated and irrigable lands in Mono Basin, and it takes the water from below the power plant and spreads it over these lands-for cattle ranches.

The city of Los Angeles undertook negotiations for the purchase of that water, with the idea of carrying it through a low range of mountains, dumping it into their Long Valley Reservoir, and then by carrying it through the power plants and through their aqueducts, down to Los Angeles.

I made an investigation for Mr. West at that time, of the supply of Los Angeles; of the quantity of water available in Mono Basin; of the probable needs of Los Angeles in the future; and of the value of the water rights and the purchase which Los Angeles contemplated making of water in that neighborhood.

Mr. HAYDEN. I am very much interested in ascertaining the facts, for the reason that I am convinced that we will find a use for all of the water in the Colorado River that may be available for irrigation in the lower basin. If the city of Los Angeles can obtain an adequate water supply for its people from some other source, I should naturally prefer to see them get it there, rather than come to the Colorado River. I wish you would discuss the results of your investigation of that matter.

Mr. MEANS. I can say that the conclusion that I reached was that there is available in Owens and Mono Valleys enough water for the city of Los Angeles, to completely fill up their present aqueduct; and to build another aqueduct of the same size, with a considerable margin of safety; that the supply which could be obtained in those two valleys was enough for 5,000,000 people, at the present rate of

use.

The city of Los Angeles picks up water now at the Owens River, a few miles north of Owens Lake, in Owens Valley; and through an aqueduct carries it around the mountains, through various tunnels, down to the city.

Mr. RAKER. The mouth of the aqueduct is just north of the Mono Lake?

Mr. MEANS. Owens Lake?

Mr. RAKER. Owens Lake; yes. That is what I mean to say.

Mr. MEANS. The Long Valley Reservoir lies on the upper part of the Owens River Basin, and was originally a part of the city of Los Angeles's proper development. They purchased a right of way in the reservoir for storage; but they have never seen fit yet to build that reservoir. They have acquired certain power rights in the gorge below the reservoir.

Now, the proposal, last of all, was to take waters from all of the streams which run through the Mono Basin, collect them into a tunnel 11 miles long, run them into the Long Valley Reservoir, and store them.

Mr. HAYDEN. In order to do that the city of Los Angeles had to consider the rights of a certain company which you represented? Mr. MEANS. Yes; the company owned about 84 per cent of the water rights in Mono Valley.

Mr. SWING. That is, they would have to pay you for it?

Mr. MEANS. Yes.

Mr. SWING. And, in addition to that, they could not carry it without running it through your power plant in the gorge?

Mr. MEANS. I do not know what plan they had for taking this additional water around the gorge.

Mr. SWING. Well, you feel pretty well satisfied that, with your company sitting there, they could not get it by you without running it through your gorge?

Mr. MEANS. I think that matter was discussed in that proposal, and that there was some solution of the matter.

Mr. SWING. As you understand it, the company would like to have the city of Los Angeles forced to go into Mono Valley, for this reason, that they would have to buy the power from you?

Mr. MEANS. I do not think there was any question of power: I do not think that was discussed.

Mr. SWING. Well, section 16 was the controlling point, was it not? Mr. MEANS. I am not sure about that.

Mr. SWING. Well, those people are going to vigorously protest against the city taking that area.

Mr. MEANS. Well, 84 per cent is owned by the company.

Mr. SWING. But you are speaking of taking all of these streams up there and picking that up?

Mr. MEANS. The company now owns 84 per cent of that.

Mr. SWING. But the people up there are violently protesting against that?

Mr. MEANS. There are very few people there.

Mr. SWING. Well, one person can get violent.

Mr. MEANS. I imagine they are violent-all of them are up in that country.

The plan of the city was to take water in a conduit, collecting all of these streams in Mono Basin, on which streams the company has reservoirs, so that the water will be delivered by regulated flow. then into this tunnel, and on to the city of Los Angeles.

Mr. RAKER. Your company owns the right to use that water, and the power; but you do not own the right to take it out of that basin yet, do you?

Mr. MEANS. No: but we have irrigation below the power plants.

Mr. RAKER. Yes; but that is out of another basin?

Mr. MEANS. No.

Mr. RAKER. But I say it is not taking it out of the basin.

Mr. MEANS. Well, we do not propose to do that.

Mr. RAKER. Well, you would be doing that if you took it in that

tunnel?

Mr. MEANS. We have never considered that.

Mr. RAKER. The city of Los Angeles would have to take it out of the basin.

Mr. SWING. Yes; Los Angeles would have to take it out of the basin.

Mr. MEANS. Now, as showing their position: They made a filing before the California Water Commission on all of those waters.

Mr. HAYDEN. By "they," do you mean the city of Los Angeles? Mr. MEANS. Yes; I have a copy of its application. And its application is still pending.

Mr. SWING. And a protest was lodged against it by the people of Mono County, was it not?

Mr. MEANS. I do not know that there is any protest.

Mr. RAKER. Yes; there is.

Mr. MEANS. I am sure they would.

Mr. HAYDEN. Let us get this clear. Is there any greater protest by the people of Mono County to the taking of water out of that basin than there would be by the people on the Colorado River Basin? Would there be any greater use for water in their basin? Mr. MEANS. I do not see any difference in principle.

Mr. SWING. Except this: That six States on the Colorado River have agreed to the definition of the only places where the water can be put to beneficial use. That was particularly for the purpose of accommodating them; but it does accommodate all other communities as well.

Mr. HAYDEN. Nevertheless, if the water can be put to beneficial use in the Colorado Basin, as I am convinced that it can be, then there would be just as much occasion for protest in the Colorado River Basin as in the Mono Basin.

Mr. RAKER. Except that the water of the Colorado River has been and is going to waste; and the indications are that it will be going to waste for many years; but when you go into Inyo County and Mono County, you have to take water that is needed, not only for domestic purposes but for stock and irrigation; and the farms are abandoned. That is the condition, is it not?

Mr. MEANS. Yes; but the use has been small, because the company owns almost everything up there.

Mr. HAYDEN. Will you give the available quantity of water up there and discuss the practicability of getting it into the city of Los Angeles, as compared with the practicability of bringing water from the Colorado River?

Mr. MEANS. I will say briefly that the first knowledge I had of this proposal was the one that the city of Los Angeles itself made. through the Conklin report. Mr. Conklin was an engineer of the Reclamation Service, and the city of Los Angeles employed the Reclamation Service to make the investigation, at that time proposing to use the water for irrigation in Owens Valley.

Mr. Conklin in his report studies the water supply in Mono Basin, the tunnel plan, and dropping the water through the gorge and then rereservoiring.

They since have proposed, instead of using it for irrigating, to take the water on to Los Angeles.

Mr. RAKER. Just before you pass that, in addition to the water going to waste in the Colorado River-and from all the statements here there is plenty and more than all can use is it not a fact, in addition to the point that I have put before you, that there are 1,500,000 acres of land below the Owens Basin, in Inyokern Valley and on Magarn Plains, that could take and use this water; and that is almost as valuable land as that down in Imperial Valley?

Mr. MEANS. Well, I would not say it is as valuable land. But there is a tremendous area of land in there that always will be desert land. That is true; there is a large area of land there that can be irrigated.

Mr. RAKER. Now, that is past and gone; but the people up in the mountains need water; they want it to drink; and they just do not want it all taken away from them.

Just in that connection, you have been around Owens Lake?
Mr. MEANS. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. And that is the lake that Mark Twain used to go on?
Mr. MEANS. That is Mono Lake.

Mr. RAKER. I mean Mono Lake is the lake where the water is so brackish that you can not drink out of it?

Mr. MEANS. It is 15 or 20 per cent salt.

Mr. RAKER. That is the same lake where Mark Twain said there was a spring in the bottom of the lake, where the cattle would stick their head in through the water of the lake and drink out of the spring?

Mr. MEANS. Yes.

Mr. HAYDEN. Please tell us about the plan?

Mr. MEANS. The plan of the city of Los Angeles was to pick up the water below our power plant, and place a regulating reservoir at the head of the tunnel, and take it through an 11-mile tunnel, to Long Valley; there store it; use it through the gorge plant, and from there take it on to the City of Los Angeles.

Mr. Conklin estimated the quantity of water available as an average of 152,000 acre-feet a year, or a continuous flow of 210 second-feet. In his report, he further studies the available water sup ply in Owens Valley, which had not been acquired by the City of Los Angeles.

There have been various estimates of the water resources of Mono Basin, all of which can be collected and taken by this plan to Los Angeles.

Mr. SWING. That is, all of them can be taken to Los Angeles, if the people are willing to let them go. I am talking about around Inyo County, near Bishop-you could not get away with all that water?

Mr. MEANS. But the city has acquired a great many ranches.

Mr. SWING. But there is a great, thriving community there; and you do not assume that it is all available for transportation to Los Angeles, do you?