Mr. MEANS. I think that is one big factor; yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. Then the price that people are getting for their crops now is a factor?

Mr. MEANS Yes, sir; that is an economic condition generally true of the whole West.

Mr. RAKER. Yes; it applies to this district, and to the whole West, as well as some of the Eastern States.

Mr. MEANS. I think it applies to the whole country.

Mr. RAKER. And that is one reason why the farmers are leaving their lands and moving to the cities.

Mr. MEANS. As one man expressed it to me in the Imperial Valley, he is losing less money by letting his land lie idle then he would be by farming it under the present conditions; and that accounts for the lands lying idle.

Mr. RAKER. If there is some of it that is held in fairly large tracts, I think it is fair to say that that is held for speculation.

Mr. MEANS. Well, I did not know that there were any such holdings until this morning.

Mr. RAKER. Then another element is that when there is high water, or plenty of water, you can irrigate it; but there is quite a fair percentage of it that is idle, because each year the farmers are not sure of having water during the irrigation season; and that being the case, they do not want to run the risk of being short of water for a week or 10 days, which would cause him to lose his crop. Is that not also the condition?

Mr. MEANS. I was surprised to find no complaint at all down there on that score. I always thought they had a considerable complaint every fall as to the scarcity of water; but I did not find a single complaint of that kind.

Mr. RAKER. I have been told that men out there have lost their entire crops by reason of that condition. Is that not true, Mr. Swing? Mr. SWING. Yes; there have been a number of severe water shortages.

Mr. MEANS. Yes; that is what I have heard.

Mr. RAKER. Now, let me ask you this question, without any reflection on anybody, and I do it openly, just to get the facts: You have told the committee for whom you made this report, have you not? Mr. MEANS. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. And who employed you to make it?

Mr. MEANS. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. In getting this data and preparing the reports from which you have been reading in connection with lower California south of the boundary line, did you consult in any way the owners or the parties representing the owners or lands or the interests in lower California.

Mr. MEANS. The only man I talked to is Mr. Allison, who has personal interests down there; and I think he is a representative of Mr. Chandler in their development.

Mr. RAKER. And did you learn from him that this interest of 800.000 acres, or thereabouts, is opposed to the all-American canal? Mr. MEANS. NO; but Mr. Allison expressed the belief that the allAmerican canal was not warranted.

Mr. SWING. Did he give his reasons why?

Mr. MEANS Yes.

Mr. SWING. And they are substantially the reasons you have given here?

Mr. MEANS. No; the only reason I remember his giving at all was the cost.

Mr. SWING. And that it was not necessary?

Mr. MEANS. It was not necessary.

Mr. SWING. Did he not give substantially the reasons that you have given here?

Mr. MEANS. I do not think so. I only talked to him 15 minutes. The CHAIRMAN. Do you think that there is a larger percentage of lands in that district that are not cultivated than in the Yuma section? It is not an uncommon thing for a man to have 4,000 or 5,000 acres of land, and cultivate only a few hundred acres; he may be saving some of it for his boys when they grow us, or offer it for sale, or there may be some other reason for not cultivating it all. I do not take it as of importance that there is a certain percentage of this land that is not cultivated; and unless it can be shown that it is not occupied and that the owners have gone into other activities, I do not think that that applies as an argument at all--especially when it will be 10 years before this additional land will be available.

Mr. MEANS. Mr. Chairman, the situation is different in an irrigation district. Ordinarily, a man in an irrigation district can not afford to allow his land to remain idle, on account of the taxes. The district assesses the taxes against the land, whether the water is used or not-ordinarily. So that you will find that in the older irrigation districts the land is pretty largely farmed. Now, I do not think the percentage is much larger in that district than it is in most of the California irrigation districts.

Mr. RAKER. Yes; that is one of the unfortunate conditions. There ought not to be a condition in an irrigation district whereby a man is compelled to farm his land the first or second year: he ought to have some land left to develop as his family grows, instead of having to develop it all, when he is poor and trying to begin his farming and support his family; and you will find all over the various irrigation districts that that is a serious difficulty.

But I want to ask you this question; I am going to take the other horn of the dilemma: Let us assume that the all-American canal is built as contemplated, and all equipped and handled as contemplated-and I will even go to the extent of assuming that the floods in the Colorado River are being controlled. Now, the Gila River comes in where the control would be by the dam in the Colorado River, does it not?

Mr. MEANS. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. Now, just take the map and point out on it and describe to us the conditions, as to lower California, and answer this question: Without the California people having to go into lower California at all, what is to prevent, if it is unprotected, or if the works are not kept up as they are now, the Imperial Valley people from being absolutely ruined and destroyed?

Mr. MEANS. Well, to begin with, I can not see any set of conditions whereby they could dare not to maintain those levees.

Mr. RAKER. Well, I did not go into detail, but I think I made my point clear.

Now, just tell us how the Imperial Valley people, with the allAmerican canal; with the flood-control dam, and otherwise, in the Colorado River, at Black Canyon or Boulder Canyon; with the water of the Gila River flowing as it is; and with the conditions as you have described them in the Colorado River; how can the people of the Imperial Valley be protected and saved, if they abandon their works, or any part of them, in lower California?

Mr. MEANS. Only through the efforts of the people in Mexico; somebody must protect the river front.

Mr. RAKER. Let us put it the other way, then; that is part of it: Can they be protected in any way, saving and excepting by the maintenance of the works that are there now?

Mr. MEANS. I do not know of any way-except my moving the boundary line.

Mr. RAKER. That boundary line does not affect it: I am looking beyond the boundary line. You have given us the amount of silt that somes down the river each year. You have told us about the floods; and the shifting of the river and the embankments being destroyed. Now, suppose a man comes and destroys those embankments down there, what is to prevent the entire Imperial Valley from being overflowed and destroyed?

Mr. MEANS. Nothing that I know of; the natural thing would be for the water to come in there and fill up that sink. And it will eventually do it.

Mr. RAKER. From the experience as an engineer that you have had, I am asking you, if there is any way by which the Imperial Valley can be protected, with the all-American canal built, without maintaining a strict supervision and a strict surveillance of the works that they have there along the Colorado River south of the boundary line?

Mr. MEANS. I know of no way of doing it, except by maintaining a supervision of those levees.

Mr. RAKER. I asked that question so that it may be explained by somebody; and as I see it on the map there [indicating], it is a thing that ought to be explained.

The CHAIRMAN. Will not this 600-foot dam on the Colorado River remove the flood menace?

Mr. MEANS. It would.

The CHAIRMAN. If that is the case, why would it be necessary to continue to maintain levees, as they are only necessary in case of a flood?

Mr. MEANS. Well, you have the Gila River to bring the floods down now.

Mr. SWING. The levees would be maintained; but it would not be necessary to be continually adding to the top of them, making them higher and higher?

Mr. MEANS. No; the cost would be nominal-well, I would not say that it would be nominal, but it would be reduced?

Mr. SWING. Greatly reduced?

Mr. MEANS. Greatly reduced.

Mr. HAYDEN. Then by building the San Carlos and other dams on the Gila River, and its tributaries the levee expense could be reduced to a nominal cost?

Mr. MEANS. It could be reduced to a nominal cost, but still you Iwould have to maintain it, because the Bill Williams River, for instance, brings in a flood.

Mr. SWING. It has to be guarded?

Mr. MEANS. It has to be guarded; in other words, you could not leave it open.

Mr. HAYDEN. Would not that bring us to the conclusion that under any circumstances, it will be necessary to maintain friendly relations with the Mexicans, so that the levees and other works there may be maintained?

Mr. MEANS. The Imperial irrigation district can never be untied from Mexico.

Mr. HAYDEN. They are tied together?

Mr. MEANS. Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it possible to maintain a dam that will control the floods in the Gila River?

Mr. MEANS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that a practicable thing?

Mr. MEANS. Yes, sir; it will be done some day.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you would not need the levees?

Mr. MEANS. Well, there are other rivers that would send down considerable floods.

The CHAIRMAN. What effort is being displayed by the owners of lands in Mexico residing in the United States towards paying their part of the expenses of maintaining levees to protect these lands?

Mr. MEANS. I do not know about that. I think you had better ask the man who owns lands in Mexico.

Mr. HAYDEN. Have you finished your discussion of the all-American canal?

Mr. MEANS. I was just going to say that if this problem was handed to me, I would take the interest on $30,000,000 and start in to build pumping units; and I could furnish all of the water and irrigate all of those lands with the interest of $30,000,000.

Mr. SWING. From what point?

Mr. MEANS. From whatever point is feasible.

Mr. SWING. Where would you put in the pumping plant?
Mr. MEANS. Over here [indicating on map].

The CHAIRMAN. From wells?

Mr. MEANS. No; from the canal.

Mr. SWING. You would be subject that much further to the control and domination of Mexican interests.

Mr. MEANS. Very little of it would be in Mexico.

Mr. SWING. Where?

Mr. MEANS. The water would be over in here [indicating on map].

Mr. SWING. That is still subject to them. You would still be subject to the will and sufferance of a foreign people before you could pump it.

Mr. MEANS. I appreciate that.

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose we got into a war with Mexico, how long would it take these Mexicans to blow up those canals, and as a consequence make the Imperial Valley a desert waste?

Mr. MEANS. I think it would take less time than it would for the Americans to take control of the situation.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, that is a menace that ought to be avoided; do you not think so?

Mr. MEANS. I rather think the people of the Imperial Valley would welcome our doing that. Yes; that is a menace, Mr. Chairman. Mr. HAYDEN. Have you finished with your general statement? Mr. MEANS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HAYDEN. I should like to ask you whether you have made any study of the amount of land that might be irrigated from the Colorado River in Arizona?

Mr. MEANS. I am very familiar with southern Arizona through various trips that I have made. There is a tremendous area of a fine quality of land in southern Arizona. I have read the report of the Arizona Engineering Commission with a good deal of interest, and I have read some of the proposals for irrigating large areas; and there is a tremendous area down there that I think some day might be brought under cultivation.

Mr. HAYDEN. Of these various proposals which one looks the most feasible to you?

Mr. MEANS. The one that proposes pumping for 600,000 acres in the lower Gila Valley.

Mr. HAYDEN. That is the plan to build a dam above Parker, carry the water down to Lighthouse Rock, and then lift it some 200 feet? Mr. MEANS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HAYDEN. Do you think that is a project worthy of consideration?

Mr. MEANS. I do; yes, sir. Not immediately; but it is a thing that ought to be provided for in the future, I think.

Mr. HAYDEN. Are you familiar with irrigation practice as to pumping water? What is the practical pump lift, say, to grow alfalfa in the lower basin of the Colorado River?

Mr. MEANS. Well, I have just prepared plans for an irrigation district near Tracy. It is about 75 miles from San Francisco; and the proposals have been approved by the bond commission, so that it has gone through the State commission-it is a proposal for lifting 150 feet, for growing alfalfa. That is not the limit; but 150 feet is entirely practicable.

Mr. HAYDEN. The Parker-Gila Valley proposal is for a lift of 200 feet. Is the power that you obtain at Tracy cheap, or comparatively expensive, to lift the water 150 feet?

Mr. MEANS. We have two possibilities: One for buying it from the public service company, the Pacific Gas & Electric Co.; and I think under the plans we have it will cost us about 1 cent a kilowatt hour.

And we have a possibility of putting in our own equipment, which we might do a little cheaper; but we can not afford to do it; I think we can buy it from the Pacific Gas & Electric Co. at about 1 cent.

Mr. HAYDEN. Then for a project located in the lower Gila Valley, as proposed in the report of the Arizona Engineering Commission, for about 600,000 acres; with a climate that you are familiar with; and with main-line railroad transportation-would you consider that such a project was within the realm of possibility?