Mr. MEANS. Not seriously.

Mr. SWING. In flood times? Well, go ahead.

Mr. MEANS. Second: The construction of an all-American canal would not affect the rights of Mexican lands to water-I mean the legal right. There has been no definition of those rights between the two nations; but it is certain that lands in Mexico are entitled to irrigation water. The argument is made that it is necessary to have the all-American canal in order to effectively negotiate the settlement of water rights with Mexico. The cost, $30,000,000, is a very expensive argument.

Mr. RAKER. Do you believe that we could have diplomatic negotiations, and in that way get what belongs to the United States cheaper than $30,000,000?

Mr. MEANS. Well, I would certainly try before I spent the $30,000,000.

Mr. SWING. Do you know whether efforts have been made to do that?

Mr. MEANS. I do not know.

Mr. SWING. Do you know that efforts have been made ever since Taft was President?

Mr. MEANS. I do not know that; no.

Third. The all-American canal would not affect the flood danger. The Imperial Valley wiH be required to maintain at all times levees in Mexico to protect from floods. With both Gila and Colorado River reservoirs built, the flood will amount to 50,000 to 75,000 second-feet, depending upon the size of these reservoirs. This will mean that levees must be maintained at all times. All that the reservoirs can ever do will be to lessen the flood danger; they will never remove it entirely.

Fourth. The operation of the all-American canal will be hazardous on account of its long length. That is true of any other long canal. It will be especially hazardous as far as the Coachella Valley.

Mr. SWING. It is shorter than the existing canal, is it not? Mr. MEANS. Yes; but the present canal is on low ground; and if any water broke out of it it would come back.

Mr. SWING. Do you not know that the whole canal is a large part of the distance above ground; that the whole canal, the bed of it, is clear up on top of the ground?

Mr. MEANS. Built up by sediment; yes.

Mr. RAKER. Sediment or sentiment? I did not catch which. [Laughter.]

Mr. MEANS. Both.

Fifth. Even if the all-American canal were built, it would be necessary to maintain the present canal line as a standby to be used in case of emergency. My authority for that statement is a report by Mr. Grunsky.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask you a question right there?
Mr. MEANS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. In the event all of this land which it is contemplated to irrigate in Mexico is put under irrigation, would there be likely to be a shortage of water for irrigating the lands in the Imperial Valley, on the assumption the Mexicans would use

it if it was there, and would use it regardless of the needs of the Imperial Valley?

Mr. MEANS. Well, there would be without storage.

The CHAIRMAN. How is that?

Mr. MEANS. There would be without storage; I think the irrigation on the Colorado River has gone about as far as it can safely go without storage of the water.

Mr. HAYDEN. What is your estimate of the area of land that could be irrigated by gravity in old Mexico, by diversions in Mexico?

Mr. MEANS. I have no estimate. The only knowledge I have is in the report on the all-American canal that I have cited, where they give a figure of 800,000 acres; and I have gone over the matter in my mind, and I do not see where they will find 800,000 acres. The CHAIRMAN. This schedule on the map says 1,843,000 acres. Mr. MEANS. That must be gross.

Mr. HAYDEN. That schedule includes 43,000 acres to be irrigated from the all-American canal; that is on the mesa?

Mr. MEANS. That is on the mesa, I think.

Mr. HAYDEN. And 510,000 acres of delta lands.

The CHAIRMAN. Belonging to the Colorado River Land Co. Mr. HAYDEN. And it gives the Laguna Solada irrigable area as 400,000 acres. Do you believe that 400,000 acres in the Laguna Solada basin could be irrigated?

Mr. MEANS. I do not. I do not think there is anything in there that would warrant that figure.

Mr. RAKER. It could be irrigated; but the question is whether it would be worth irrigating?

Mr. MEANS. I do not think so.

Mr. SWING. Do you mean that you do not think there are 400,000 acres in there, or do you mean you do not think it is worth irrigating? Mr. MEANS. That it is not worth irrigating.

Mr. SWING. You do not doubt that there are 400.000 acres in there?

Mr. MEANS. Certainly not. Now, plenty of this mesa land is of the same type as around Yuma, and you could go as far as you like down there by pumping.

Mr. HAYDEN. The map shows that at the mouth of the Colorado River there is a mesa, in Sonora, 600 feet high. The level of the river at the international boundary line is about 100 feet above sea level?

Mr. MEANS. About 125 feet above.

Mr. HAYDEN. It is 125 feet at Pilot Knob?

Mr. MEANS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HAYDEN. It is less than that at the Arizona boundary. With a diversion out of the Colorado River in Mexico, would it not be impossible to get any water by gravity on the Sonora mesa?

Mr. MEANS. It would all have to be pumped. I do not know how far it would go; and a pump-line canal would take in a large acreage; but I doubt if it would be 500,000 acres.

Sixth. The all-American canal irrigating the mesa east of Imperial Valley introduces a seepage and drainage menace to the lands lying under that bench. It is well known that the irrigation of higher lands always causes the water to rise under lower areas.

Methods of drainage are being devised to protect the lower lands, and it is probable that damage to any large extent can be prevented. While the introduction of such a menace to lands already in cultivation is not a valid reason against construction of the high canal, it is a factor which should enter into the calculations. The cost of providing this necessary drainage will add greatly to the already heavy debt on Imperial district lands.

Mr. SWING. Drainage is necessary in any irrigated area, is it not? Mr. MEANS. That is true; this makes simply a little larger problem; that is all.

Seventh. The cost of the construction of the all-American canal will add so much to the debts of the district that the loaning value of the lands will be very much reduced. At the present time there are many ranches of good quality which can be purchased for $100 per acre. Banks loan $40 per acre. Adding a debt of $40 to $50 per acre greatly reduces the loaning value. If the debt added safety to the works or increased the assurance of the water supply, it would add to the land values. This is not true in the case of the all-American canal-it neither increases the water supply nor makes it more certain of delivery. It is a heavy debt, with assurance of increased annual cost and with no benefit but the removal of trivial annoyances in Mexico.

Eighth. The cost of the all-American canal will add very much to the already heavy tax burdens of the Imperial district farmers

Mr. SWING (interposing). Before you take that up, let me ask you this, as to the consideration of safety: Do you know that at any time-that is, in any year-Imperial Valley can be prevented from taking out water at its present heading by a suit pending at Yuma in the State court?

Mr. MEANS. No; I had heard of some suit being filed——

Mr. SWING (continuing). That there is an injunction in effect, and that it is waived from one year to the next, by an express agreement, on the one condition that we build the all-American canal, and do something for the protection of the people at Yuma. Is that not some element of safety to have that threat of injunction removed?

Mr. MEANS. Yes; that is a factor.

Mr. HAYDEN. Is it not true that the present canal, beginning at the Laguna Dam, could be enlarged and carried on along the foot of the California mesa, and the water there dropped into the existing Imperial water system near Hanlon Heading, without building the all-American canal that would remove this menace to the Yuma project in the State of Arizona?

Mr. MEANS. That is one of the ways I was going to mention: I was going to suggest that plan: there is some argument that could be made in favor of that.

Mr. SWING. Well, if you free your body, and leave your head in danger, and your throat in danger, by that 60 miles of lines in Mexico, what good will it do you?

Mr. MEANS. Eighth. The cost of the all-American canal will add very much to the already heavy tax burdens of the Imperial district. farmers. At present the District taxes are an average of about $5 per acre of irrigable land. These taxes will probably increase, as money is still being spent on drainage and there is much drainage

maintenance to be done in the future. County and State taxes average about $3 per hundred dollars valuation, or about $2 per acre. The taxes now imposed are about $7 per acre with the prospects of increase. The terms of the Johnson-Swing bill provide for the payment for the amount of the cost assessed to these lands under the terms of the Extension Act.

The cost under that act is spread over a period of 20 years, with a maximum of 7 per cent installments in one year, which will amount to $8.80 per acre, which is to be added to the $7 per acre now imposed, making the taxes $10.80 per acre. And besides that, the district has certain refunding charges on bonds which they have heretofore issued. I do not know what they are; but there is a provision in the California law for the issuing of refunding bonds. So they may never pay those off.

With the increased maintenance cost imposed by the all-American canal, it is probable that the annual tax on average land in the district will exceed $10 per acre.

Mr. RAKER. Have you included in that the operation and maintenance charges that there will be under the all-American canal? Mr. MEANS. I assume they will be something in addition to the charges now imposed. I said there will probably be an increase to $10 an acre.

Mr. SWINGS That is, you are adding on the operation and maintenance charges for the all-American canal; but are you deducting anything for getting rid of the maintenance of the Mexican canal? Mr. MEANS. I am just substituting one canal for the other. But I said I think the all-American canal will cost more.

The farmers of the valley can pay this tax but it will prove very burdensome. Ten dollars per acre tax on land valued at $100 to $200 per acre is very high. It will serve to discourage sales, reduce the loaning value of the lands, and generally discourage the entire county. There are no large communities in the State of California, outside of cities, which now thrive with tax burdens as heavy as this.

I have had a great deal of experience with irrigation districts. I have been consulting engineer for 10 or 12 of them in this State; I have built several; and they have had serious difficulties in collecting the money from the farmers.

Mr. RAKER. Just tell us which one you built?

Mr. MEANS. I built the last half of the Anderson Cottonwood irrigation district, the Happy Valley irrigation district, the Corcoran irrigation district, the Tule irrigation district, the Baxter irrigation district, and I am engaged now in the preparation of plans for two others, which we hope to construct this summer; and I have been constructing engineer for the Madera irrigation district, the Medano district, the South San Joaquin district, and various others. In fact, nearly all of my connection is with irrigation districts.

Mr. SWING. The Imperial irrigation district has never defaulted on its bonds or interest payments, has it?

Mr. MEANS. No: in fact, there is only one irrigation district that has defaulted on its interest payments. We have a record we can be proud of; it has put the irrigation district bonds on a high level. Mr. RAKER. Those districts that you have been working with, and have been consulting engineer for, have they been successful?

Mr. MEANS. Well, you can not be sure of the success of an irrigation district at first.

Mr. RAKER. I am leaving out the Eagle Lake and the Baxter districts, because they are new.

Mr. MEANS. They are all successful districts, with the exception of the Happy Valley, and that is one district that is in default. It is entirely fruit land; and the area put under cultivation has been so small that they have not been able to meet their obligations.

Mr. RAKER. The land and the water and everything are there: and it is up to the people to get busy and put it in cultivation by starting orchards.

Mr. MEANS. That is the problem: an orchard district is exceedingly slow in developing.

Now, I mentioned Laguna Dam in connection with the desilting, which is an important thing in connection with the all-American canal.

The all-American canal brings under irrigation an area of new land of about 270,400 acres. Of this, the report shows that 211.400 would be gravity, and 59,000 acres by pumping.

None of this land becomes irrigable before the construction of the all-American canal; in other words, an initial expenditure of $30,000,000 must be made before any land can be irrigated. That is. unless some plan of partial construction and continuous enlarge. ment should be devised. That has not yet been determined.

There are in the Imperial Valley to-day under ditch and prepared for irrigation between 100,000 and 150,000 acres of land. This land has all been in cultivation and is now idle largely on account of economic conditions. With this true there is little reason to increase the acreage of land by nearly 300,000 acres. The landowners of the Imperial Valley will show poor business judgment if they encourage the extension of irrigation to 270.000 new acres of competitive land until their own area is more generally farmed and there is a demand for more acreage. The increase in area would depreciate the value of the farms already valued far below their productive value.

Mr. SWING. This new land could not come under cropage in less than 10 years, could it?

Mr. MEANS. Well, it would come under just as fast as construetion could be carried on.

Mr. SWING. Well, you would have to have storage. You said a moment ago that all water in the river was occupied unless they had storage; and that would take 10 years to provide that.

Mr. MEANS. Yes; I think it would take 10 years.

In this connection it is of interest to note that the University of California, the State Engineer of California, and the Irrigation District Bond Certification Commission have been endeavoring for two years to discourage the extension of irrigation in California on account of the large area of land now under ditch but lying idle either for lack of farmers or on account of adverse economic conditions.

Mr. RAKER. Before you leave that subject. let me ask you this: Is it not a fact that this land that is not being used under the ditches now-this 35 per cent, or whatever amount you named--that a great deal of it is in absentee ownership; that they are living away from there and they are holding the land for speculation and otherwise!