Mr. HAYDEN. The suggestion by Mr. Mark Rose was that a canal might be constructed through a low pass near the international boundary, to bring the water into the north end of the Laguna Salada.

Mr. MEANS. There is just a short divide there [indicating] through which water could be brought; and there is some land above the flat proper that could be cultivated.

Mr. HAYDEN. About how many acres?

Mr. MEANS. About 5,000 or 6,000 acres but that is absolutely a guess.

Mr. HAYDEN. You do not believe that the Laguna Salada area is very desirable as irrigable land?

Mr. MEANS. Not at all. If I were asked to go in there and investigate a project, I would advise a man not to invest his money in it. Mr. SWING. You know the Government condemned the Imperial Valley, because of its alkali?

Mr. MEANS. Yes, sir; that was a mistake. I had something to do with those reports; it was a mistake; we were all young men, and did not know what we were talking about in those days.

Mr. SWING. That is a frank confession.

Mr. MEANS. Well, I will say that we did not condemn the whole valley.

Mr. RAKER. It has been said that the all-American canal is so high at the west end, say 25 or 30 feet, that they could bring that water in from that and irrigate the Pattie Basin.

Mr. MEANS. I would not think so. The all-American canal has several drops in it; and if you wanted to get it across, this would not be the way to bring it; but you would have to bring it down this ridge [indicating on map] from Andrade to Black Butte. In other words, if you could siphon across from this mesa [indicating] to this mesa [indicating], which is too long a distance for practical purposes, you might get water high enough to do some good.

Now, with this brief description of the Pescadero Cut and Levee, I want to describe the protection system for the Imperial Valley, as I saw it.

The entire system for flood protection along the Colorado River now consists of the following works:

First. River levee system: The main river levees are 30 miles long and extend from the headworks at Andrade to a point 4 miles below the Pescadero Cut. This levee averages less than 6 feet high, it is all well built and has been flood tested. It is rock-protected on the river side and has a standard gauge railroad track the full length.

Second. Secondary levee: Back of the river levee there is a secondary levee known as the Saiz levee.

The Saiz levee connects with the river levee at C-D Junction, continuing on high ground, and connecting with Volcano Lake levee at 7 miles from its western end, following the high ground.

The Volcano Lake levee is now away from the overflow and will not be touched by floods unless there is a break in the river levee. This second line of defense, the Saiz levee, is well protected by heavy growth of vegetation along its front and will afford very effeceive means of stopping any overflow which may pass the river levee.

It will direct this overflow down into that Volcano Lake basin [indicating].

And right here, I might say that, under present conditions, a break might occur here [indicating] and the flood be directed down into Volcano Lake levee a long time, because that basin is now empty; and it would take a good many days' flow of the river to fill it and bring it up to the level of the old floods, which stood there all the time

Mr. RAKER (interposing). Is that empty now?

Mr. MEANS. That is empty now; you can not see water from the Volcano Lake levee now.

Third. The Volcano Lake levee connects with the Saiz levee and also with the Southern Pacific International Railroad levee, thus affording another defense against floods.

The Volcano Lake levee comes from the high ground at Black Butte, and runs straight across the valley and connects with the International Railroad at a station called Volcano.

This levee is not now in the overflow area. Volcano Lake has been filled with sediment and will probably be farmed this year.

I did not see that. In fact, I understand there is a controversy as to who owns the bottom of the lake.

Mr. RAKER. Well, I was down there, and I thought that whole thing was a lake; it was within from a foot to a foot and a half of the top.

Mr. MEANS. It was.

Mr. RAKER. That was in 1920 or 1921.

Mr. MEANS. It was; but since the 1921 flood the water has not been against the Volcano Lake levee at all.

Volcano Lake levee is rock-faced and capable of resisting flood attack, but there is little likelihood of its being attacked by water again.

Fourth. Quarry and railroad tracks

Mr. RAKER (interposing). Well, is that the condition all along the railroad now?

Mr. MEANS. No; the western 7 miles of Volcano Lake levee

Mr. RAKER (interposing). I mean from where the other levee strikes it-Saiz levee--to the mountains?

Mr. MEANS. To the hills?

Mr. RAKER. Yes.

Mr. MEANS. Yes, sir; it is rock-protected.

The

Fourth. Quarry and railroad tracks: As a means of protecting levees from washouts, the irrigation district has a well-equipped quarry at Andrade, the head of the levee system, and a large amount of rock is quarried and ready for loading. Two Bucyrus steam shovels, with 3 cubic yard dippers, load this rock on cars. district owns two locomotives and 39 16 cubic yard side-dump steel cars for hauling rock. Shops are provided for repairs. The levee line and quarry are connected with the Southern Pacific Railroad, so it is possible to rent other cars or equipment in an emergency. The levee lines are paralleled by a telephone line and in flood seasons are patroled regularly.

Fifth. Personnel: The personnel of the irrigation district is an important part of the defense against floods. Nearly 20 years'

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experience with the Colorado River has developed valuable knowledge from which action in any emergency may be directed.

The district maintains a superintendent and the skeleton force for operating the quarry, railroad, and equipment, so that it is possible at a moment's notice to start rock on trains for protective purposes.

Experiences in the past have taught the necessity for vigilance in watching levee and river conditions. It is also essential that the railroad tracks be maintained in serviceable condition and that equipment at all times be in serviceable condition. So long as the Imperial irrigation district realizes this and continues to maintain the organization and equipment as it now is, there need be no fear of floods. The worst menace to the Imperial Valley is an attempt to economize and neglect of the river levees.

Now, assuming a reservoir on the Colorado River sufficient to reduce floods and I may say that any reservoir built is built upon the basis of a certain amount of flood water coming down in here [indicating]-the plans of the Colorado River reservoirs have spoken of reducing the flood to a 50,000 second-foot flow, which they regard as a quantity which can be safely carried.

The Federal Power Commission engineer, Colonel Kelly, has used the figure 75,000 feet as a quantity which would be safely cared for. But we want to remember that, until a large reservoir is built upon the Gila River-and it is considerably more of a proposition than one on the Colorado River, because it will have to be for flood protection alone, and would be a very costly structureyou can expect in the Colorado River just as big floods as we have ever had there. In fact, the largest flood-I think it was in January, 1916-was nearly all from the Gile River; it flowed 240,000 second-feet.

Mr. HAYDEN. Of which about 200,000 second-feet came out of the Gila River?

Mr. MEANS. Yes, sir; approximately that.

Mr. HAYDEN. As to flood control on the Gila River, there is in existence the Roosevelt Reservoir, which controls the floods of Salt River, leaving unregulated the Verde River and the Gila River! Mr. MEANS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HAYDEN. If the Verde were regulated by a reservoir, and the Gila River proper were regulated by a reservoir at San Carlos, and the other main tributary of the Gila River, the San Pedro, by a reservoir at Benson, would not that take off the peak of the floods, so as to remove the menace to a great extent?

Mr. MEANS. I am of the opinion that it would. But I would study very seriously the question of building a reservoir at San Carlos as a flood protection and cutting the flood down so much that it could be cared for. And we have two other streams where a reservoir has been proposed, the Hassayampa and the Agua Fria Rivers, just as they have on the upper Gila and the Verde.

Mr. HAYDEN. I can say, as to the Verde, that steps are now under way, and I think with very good prospects of success, of placing a reservoir on the Verde River, without expense to the Federal Government, that will completely control the floods.

The San Carlos dam bill is now pending before Congress.

There is also an organized irrigation district on the San Pedro, at Benson, which has a considerable indication of success, that proposes to construct a dam at Charleston to control that stream. If all of those streams were controlled by dams, in your judg ment, would there be a serious flood menace from the Gila River? Mr. MEANS. No; I think not. I think it would cut the peak off of the flood and make the rest of it easy to handle.

Mr. HAYDEN. But without any flood regulation on the Gila, even though a great reservoir were built in the Grand Canyon region to control the Colorado River, would it still be necessary to maintain. levees to protect the Imperial Valley?

Mr. MEANS. You would; and you would have this situation especially not only on account of the size of the floods, but on account of the way the floods come down. The Colorado River digs a channel when it has a big flood along the track of the flood. The bed lowers more than the stream rises frequently. I think the records show that the bed has been lowered as much as 40 feet.

Now, the Gila River flood is a quick flood; it does not give the channel a chance to change; it is more serious, because for a time it will be higher. The Colorado River flood is of longer duration.

Mr. RAKER. How long a duration is the flood on the Colorado River?

Mr. MEANS. It will be up above 100,000 second-feet for three or four months.

Mr. RAKER. For how long?

Mr. MEANS. For three or four months. The serious danger of the Gila River flood is not so great, because it goes down more quickly. But at the same time your levees must be maintained against that flood. But as this land in here [indicating on map] gets under cultivation more and more, you will have more protection for the levees and the waters will go down more quickly.

Mr. RAKER. You say that channel has cut down as much as 40 feet?

Mr. MEANS. I think so; does it not, Mr. Davis?

Mr. A. P. DAVIS. Yes; we have cuts that do, I think.

Mr. MEANS. Another fact that was mentioned this morning, I think, by Mr. Raker, is to keep the channel of the Colorado River free of vegetation, because that would be a very serious thing to have it filled up with underbrush; there must always be a channel maintained in the river to take care of any flood that comes; that must be maintained all the time.

Mr. RAKER. Is not that one of the troubles-that so many of our people are getting floods on their farms that they are giving up cultivating some of those lands-and they are allowing trees and vegetation to grow up which practically are destroying the channel? Mr. MEANS. It is doing a good deal toward having that effect. They tell me it is very difficult to find this old channel now, and in 1904 they say there was a very plain and distinct channel. And I would expect that, even with the Colorado Reservoir built, considerable money would have to be spent to protect the Imperial Valley from floods. I do not see how they can escape it under any set of conditions.

Mr. HAYDEN. Then it is to the interest of the people in Imperial Valley to have the floods of the Gila River controlled by reservoirs! Mr. MEANS. Yes; that will help the situation.

Mr. HAYDEN. Are you at all familiar with the Sentinel Reservoir site?

Mr. MEANS. No; I have been there; but it was not talked of as a reservoir site at that time, and I do not know anything about it. Mr. RAKER. What is this San Carlos project? Is that supposed to be a Government project?

Mr. HAYDEN. It is provided for in a bill now pending before the Senate, authorizing the construction of the San Carlos dam, primarily on behalf of the Pima Indians, who had a water supply before the white people came to the country, and who have lost it. and who can only regain it by storing the waters of the Gila River in a reservoir.

Mr. RAKER. They have the lands for irrigation?
Mr. HAYDEN. Yes: abundant land.

Mr. RAKER. Now, had you finished that description of the delta? Mr. MEANS. I was just going to say one other thing: I do not want anybody to understand that I say that the entire flood menace has been removed from Imperial Valley, and that they can go to sleep and not fear anything further. I think it is the other way. They will always have the flood menace in Imperial Valley; and there is no effective way of escaping it for many generations. I think, however, that a reservoir should be built for flood protection as soon as it can be done; and that will further remove the danger, so that the valley will be safe.

Mr. RAKER. Can you give the committee any possible reason that can exist for the American owners who have the land in Mexico, in lower California, to take the attitude that they did not participate. on a 50-50 basis, in the cost of all of those canals and channels and other means of service that you have just described, for their own protection, as well as for the protection of the Imperial Valley in California. Have you anything to offer us on that?

Mr. MEANS. Mr. Raker. I have not. I know there is a controversy and a very wide difference of opinion on the two sides of the line. The Mexican people-and when I speak of them, I have talked to Mr. Allison and one or two other men connected with the company-feel that in paying 85 cents an acre-foot for water, they are contributing to the levee protection. You will remember that the irrigation district does not take care of their laterals for them; it simply delivers them water at one point, and they have to have their own lateral distribution. The American farmer pays more, but he has his laterals taken care of. Now, that is just one thing. I do not know much about the justice of it one way or the other.

Mr. RAKER. Your explanation of it this afternoon is so clear and plain-as to the situation there that I can not get it in my mind yet how a man with so much land, and so much involved, can stand idly by and ask other people to spend all the money and do all the work, and be indifferent-and not only be indifferent, but, to some extent, as the testimony presented here shows, attempting to thwart a proper development of the water courses and canals through that country.