accumulated and prepared and printed by the Reclamation Service, as well as any that has been published by the War Department. Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir; that is my understanding.

Mr. RAKER. And that he would be prepared to give that information to the committee relative to construction of any dams or any work upon the Colorado River.

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir; if you wish Mr. Barre here I think you will find him very expert in regard to the Colorado River development all the way.

Mr. RAKER. He has gone into the feasibility of these projects, and their construction would be justifiable for the expense that it would cost to build them.

Mr. BALLARD. Yes; Mr. Barre is our executive engineer, and what we mean by that is that he is an engineer who has also an executive mind. He rather couples the engineering detail of the strictly electrical, hydraulic engineering work, with the thought of the executives as to economics, as to the business, as to rates, and all these financial problems involved, so if you wih Mr. Barre to come here, he will be able to not only give you the engineering data that you wish, but he will be able to supplement and go over all of this matter that I have given you. He is very familiar with all the finances,

etc.

Mr. RAKER. You have talked with Mr. Barre before you came on this time?

Mr. BALLARD. Oh, yes.

Mr. RAKER. You and Mr. Barre went over the matters you presented to the committee to-day?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. Did Mr. Barre, to your knowledge now, give an examination to the Glen Canyon matter?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. And also the Diamond Creek?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. And the Boulder and Black Canyon in that entire territory?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir; and also Topock.

Mr. RAKER. Topock?

Mr. BALLARD. Topock; in fact, Judge Raker, my understanding is there are more than 20 sites on the river where dams could be built and power developed; they are not confined to the three west and south of Lee's Ferry. He knows where they are.

Mr. RAKER. That includes where you say 3,000,000 horsepower could be developed?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes; 3,000,000, excluding the power possibilities in the Grand Canyon National Park, which are 1,500,000 more. Mr. RAKER. Going further up-stream?

Mr. BALLARD. No; the Grand Canyon Park, between Glen Canyon and the gulf.

Mr. RAKER. The park is below Glen Canyon?

Mr. BALLARD. The park is below that; yes, sir. The development in that park is excluded as to anything in the immediate future, or until other power is developed, for the reason that the Government desires the park to be kept free from power development.

Mr. RAKER. Has Mr. Barre submitted either a written report or a verbal report to the directors of the company relative to his investigation of the Colorado River, and its possibilities for electrical development?

Mr. BALLARD. No: Mr. Barre does not report to the directors.
Mr RAKER. Who does he report to?

Mr. BALLARD. Directly to Mr. George C. Ward, our vice president in charge of the construction and operation.

Mr. RAKER. Has such a report been made to Mr. Ward?

Mr. BALLARD. I did not understand you.

Mr. RAKER. I asked you if such a report has been made to Mr. Ward.

Mr. BALLARD. I do not think anything in the nature of one single report has been made. He has made 20 to 30 different reports. Mr. RAKER. In writing?

Mr. BALLARD. I think so.

Mr. RAKER. Would those be obtainable?

Mr. BALLARD. I think so.

Mr. RAKER. Has he discussed all these phases with you!
Mr. BALLARD. I think so; yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. What I was trying to get is, that from your engineer, Mr. Berre, and his consultation with other engineers, from the examination made, they have determined that these various dams could be placed on the Colorado River at a price that would justify their construction.

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. From which if constructed the power company would be able to build them, commencing in a reasonable time, and continuing, and would be able to dispose of their bonds and still be able to pay a reasonable rate of interest on the money they had to use, a reasonable dividend upon the stock, as well as all taxes and maintenance and upkeep.

Mr. BALLARD. That is true: yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. As well as the depreciation?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. And also a reasonable fund to be laid aside for contingencies?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir: that is true, if the development is undertaken under a general, coordinated plan, which will fit the market that exists from time to time.

Mr. RAKER. Has the board of directors of the company discussed this matter to the extent that the board is of the opinion: that is. the governing board is of the opinion, that it is feasible and practicable, as you have stated Mr. Berre has advised you and Mr. Ward!

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir: the board has discussed it, and the president has discussed it with the board, the feasibility and practicability of it, with the result that the president's letter to you gentlemen states the willingness of the company to proceed at once with an expenditure of from $30,000,000 to $40,000,000 a year on the work.

Mr. RAKER. How long would it be before you would be able to have any construction if your company was given a license?

Mr. BALLARD. I should say that after the granting of a license we would begin construction in a week.

Mr. RAKER. And how long would it be before there would be any dam in there, whereby the flood waters would be to some extent controlled, as well as, perhaps, the electrical development taken care of? Mr. BALLARD. Within two years.

Mr. RAKER. That would be a construction at what point?

Mr. BALLARD. That would be one of the lower constructions.
Mr. RAKER. Needles, Topock. near the Black Canyon?

Mr. BALLARD. Well, I do not think that the company itself would construct the Topock Dam. That is strictly a flood control proposition, as I understand it.

Mr. RAKER. That will be practically eliminated so far as the electric company is concerned.

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir; that is purely and simply a flood-control proposition. Mr. Berre and other engineers tell me it should be considered in the interest of flood control, entirely separate from power.

Mr. RAKER. And any money invested in the Needles or Topock dam and reservoir would not add anything to the electrical development.

Mr. BALLARD. Excepting this, that with the developments up above, the lower dam would act as a re-regulating reservoir, which would be of very considerable value to power operation.

Mr. RAKER. But they could generate some electric energy from the lower dam.

Mr. BALLARD. They could later, but in the meantime, before they generate any electricity, the fact that there would be a reservoir down below would facilitate the power operations above, and would be of value to those operations, removing the necessity of considering flood control every minute of the time, in connection with the withdrawals of water, or the operation of the power plant.

Mr. SWING. For agriculture either.

Mr. BALLARD. Either one.

Mr. RAKER. So far as any attempt at utilization, after the dam is built, at Needles, would be an ill-advised attempt to construct a dam at Needles at the present time, if you hope to get any immediate returns from the electric energy that might be developed there? Mr. BALLARD. I do not so understand that.

Mr. RAKER. If you constructed that and that alone.

Mr. BALLARD. That would solve the flood control proposition? Mr. RAKER. Yes, but it would not bring in any revenue in the way of electrical development.

Mr. BALLARD. No, it would not. It should be constructed, in our judgment, as strictly a flood control proposition, with the gates open, as our engineers say.

Mr. RAKER. If you constructed that alone, and if no dams were constructed farther up the river, it would only have the benefit, simply flood control.

Mr. BALLARD. That is all, that use, but if that were constructed, then the flood control proposition would be solved, and with the completion of the pact as between the States, there would be no

92265-24-PT 3——5

reason why the whole river should not be opened up for general power development to serve the needs of any parts of the seven States interested in the Colorado River basin, to release the whole river as a power proposition, and a good one.

Mr. RAKER. Would the silt be taken care of at Needles?

Mr. BALLARD. There is no doubt of that. The silt would be taken care of by the power development.

Mr. RAKER. No, I am talking about the one at Needles. If that alone is built, would that take care of the silt proposition in the river?

Mr. BALLARD. No, I understand in the course of time the Topock Dam would fill.

Mr. RAKER. If the construction of the dam at Needles would not furnish electric development, and would not control the silt question in the river, and would not provide for irrigation— Mr. BALLARD. That dam alone would not.

Mr. RAKER. But would have the one effect of controlling floods? Mr. BALLARD. That is the conception of our engineers, that Topock Dam is strictly a flood control proposition, and the quickest, simplest and most efficient flood control proposition on the river.

Mr. RAKER. Without any respect or regard to the expense of construction of such a dam?

Mr. BALLARD. They have some figures of the possible expense on that. They think the dam could be built for $2,500,000.

Mr. RAKER. Your engineer will be able to further explain that! Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. Now these applications that you have filed, I have understood from you this morning that they are filed with the intention, with the purpose, of carrying them forward to completion.

There

Mr. BALLARD. Yes; there is not the slightest doubt of that. There is every reason why they should go forward. The Colorado River development interconnected with our own development, will be very, very beneficial, and should be undertaken at once. should be no delay. It is the intention of our company, if the petitions are granted, to immediately begin construction, without the slighest delay, to carry the construction forward.

Mr. RAKER. You say that you have had a hearing before the Water Power Commission?

Mr. BALLARD. No hearing.

Mr. RAKER. What is holding you up?

Mr. BALLARD. Our understanding is the failure of Arizona to ratify the compact is holding up the development on the river. Mr. RAKER. Is that the only thing?

Mr. BALLARD. That is the only thing I know of.

Mr. RAKER. If the compact was approved by the State of Arizona, and granted by Congress, the Water Power Commission would be in a position to either act favorably on the application of the Edison Co. and others, or reject them, as it saw fit?

Mr BALLARD. So far as I know, that is the only reason that has ever been given to us.

Mr. RAKER. They would not hold them up so far as any legis lation pending is concerned, for the reason or purpose of the Gov

ernment constructing a dam in the Colorado River, so far as you know?

Mr. BALLARD. I have never heard of that at all.

Mr. RAKER. What authority were you given when you came here to appear before the committee and make the presentation, as to the attitude, and what the Edison Co. would do if it was given permission and this was granted?

Mr. BALLARD. I was instructed by the president to come and make those statements.

Mr. RAKER. And these statements as made by you this morning are the statements of the company?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. And you represent their views?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. Could you name the directors of your company? Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir; Mr. John B. Miller, president; Mr. William A. Brackenridge, senior vice president; Mr. R. H. Ballard, vice president and general manager.

Mr. RAKER. Mr. E. W. Rollins?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. Mr. H. M. Robinson?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes: Mr. H. M. Robinson.

Mr. RAKER. Mr. H. E. Huntington?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. Mr. A. W. Harris?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. Mr. A. H. Fleming?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir; Mr. A. H. Fleming.

Mr. RAKER. Mr. J. H. Fisher?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. Mr. W. E. Dunn?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir; Mr. Dunn.

Mr. RAKER. Mr. George T. Cockran?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir; and Mr. George C. Ward.

Mr. RAKER. Yes; Mr. George C. Ward.

Mr. BALLARD. Mr. George C. Ward, vice president, and in charge of operation and construction.

Mr. RAKER. What relation have those people?

Mr. BALLARD. There are 13 directors. Did you name them all? Mr. RAKER. Yes; I named them all.

Mr. BALLARD. I know there were 13, an unlucky number.

Mr. RAKER. I am not sure about that. What relations have you with the other companies that are furnishing hydroelectric power in southern California?

Mr. BALLARD. We have interchange arrangements. Our systems are generally connected, one has to interchange power from one system to the other.

Mr. RAKER, I thought I had a list of them here.

Mr. BALLARD. We interchange power.

Mr. RAKER. The Nevada Power Co. Is your company interested in that?

Mr. BALLARD. No, sir.

Mr. RAKER. Any of its directors?