on the basis of a going concern, establish its financial basis, and make possible the development of other sites above, as market conditions demanded.

I think the first step would be the control at Glen Canyon, for the purpose of creating there a large reservoir, a storage of water, the effect of which would be to increase the flow of water down below and make possible the enlargement of the lower power plant. The Glen Canyon reservoir probably could not be constructed to a height of more than two or three hundred feet as an initial stage, but would be so constructed that it might be raised to a height of five of six hundred feet later, when the market required it. Then developments could be made on the river in between those two sites as the market demanded more power.

Mr. HAYDEN. What investigation have you made of the Glen Canyon site to determine its suitability as a point for locating a dam and reservoir?

Mr. BALLARD. Our investigation has consisted of survey crews and engineers spending the better part of a year in working up possible economic storage size of reservoirs and making borings for bedrock fountains, investigating the character of the stuff they would have to handle, and the different requirements for the building of

the dam.

Mr. HAYDEN. At what depth did you find bedrock?

Mr. BALLARD. Bedrock at Glen Canyon, at the lowest point, was found at 67 feet. I do not recall precisely. I think one hole was deeper than that, about 67 feet.

Mr. HAYDEN. How does that depth compare with bedrock in the lower canyon sites, which you are thinking of utilizing?

Mr. BALLARD. My understanding is that the bedrock in Boulder Canyon is about 135 or 140 feet. We have just completed some borings in a site down below near Boulder Canyon, which, I do not know whether officially or otherwise, is known as Kelly site, because it was discovered by Colonel Kelly, chief engineer of the Federal Power Commission, when he made an investigation of the river, and it is in between Glen Canyon and Black Canyon, in between Boulder Canyon and Black Canyon. Those borings in the center of the river found bedrock at 83 feet. We found bedrock yesterday in the quarter section next to the Arizona side at 45 feet. I understand the Diamond Creek site where Girand has an application. He found bedrock there at a somewhat higher depth, or at less depth, 35 or 40 feet, or some such figure as that.

Mr. HAYDEN. What is the relationship of the depth of bedrock to the cost of a dam?

Mr. BALLARD. I am told that is the principal item controlling the cost of the dam; that is to say, the lower bedrock, the farther down you have to go with the foundation the greater is the cost of the dam, and the multiplication of the cost is in more than direct proportion to the lower depth, or lower point of bedrock. In other words, the farther down you go the very much more expensive it is. Mr. HAYDEN. Then, it might be cheaper to build a dam where bedrock is comparatively near the surface, even though the width of the canyon is greater.

Mr. BALLARD. I am told so; yes, sir.

Mr. HAYDEN. With this high voltage of 220,000 that you have developed, what is the economical transmission distance of power now considered to be?

Mr. BALLARD. I understand from our engineers it is practically unlimited for large amounts of power. It would not be practicable to transmit small quantities of power, say 25,000 or 30,000 or 50,000 horsepower, more than two or three hundred miles, but when you get into large blocks of power the engineers feel safe in estimating an economical distribution up to 1,000 miles.

Mr. HAYDEN. At the present time?

Mr. BALLARD. At the present time; yes, sir.
Mr. HAYDEN. With that voltage?

Mr. BALLARD, Yes, sir.

Mr. SINNOTT. What amount of voltage?

Mr. BALLARD. The present 220,000 volts.

Mr. HAYDEN. Then the disadvantage of long distance transmission at that voltage would not be from the loss of power over the lines due to resistance, but would be due solely to the investment in the transmission lines for that number of miles?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir: the line itself.

Mr. HAYDEN. That is the only adverse factor, so far as the long distance transmission is concerned?

Mr. BALLARD. That is my understanding of it, yes, sir.

Mr. HAYDEN. Have you made any investigation at Glen Canyon to determine the quality of the rock in the walls with respect to its suitability for concrete aggregate?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir; we have made such investigation, and it is satisfactory.

Mr. HAYDEN. There is a report to the effect that the sandstone walls and bed of the canyon above Lees Ferry are so loose and soft as to be unsuitable for the location of the dam, and that the character of the stone was such that it could not be used for concrete aggregate.

Mr. BALLARD. Our engineers, all of them, were working on this problem, and they all tell me that is an entirely erroneous report. Mr. RAKER. That is for Glen Canyon.

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HAYDEN. In discussing the comparative merits of private and public ownership of utilities of this kind, you stated there would be no taxes and a lower rate of interest under public ownership. I gathered from you statement that you thought the greater efficiency of private management would make up for that advantage. Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HAYDEN. Those factors may then balance, but what provision do you make for the retirement of your bonds and your stock, so as to reduce the capital invested in the enterprise?

Mr. BALLARD. We are not permitted under regulation to make provision for the retirements of capital. The theory of regulation is our capital shall always be outstanding, that the rate payer of to-day shall not be charged with the retirement for the benefit of the rate payer of to-morrow.

Mr. HAYDEN. Then the capital charge remains fixed?
Mr. BALLARD. And outstanding.

Mr. HAYDEN. The theory of this bill is, as I understand it, that the Government shall advance the funds necessary to construct the dam and works required to develop hydro-electric power, and that out of the receipts of power the total cost shall be amortized, and ultimately paid off, so that in time there will be no capital charge against the consumer. Is that a practical plan, in your judgment? Mr. BALLARD. That will be paid by the consumer of to-day, if that provision is for one, it might be made for the other. If it is desired that the consumer of to-day shall pay for these plants, under a plan of that kind, it would affect only the rate to be charged. Mr. HAYDEN. Would that plan so add to the rate charged for power that a plant of that kind could not successfully compete with a private enterprise, where there was no charge for amortization?

Mr. BALLARD. I think it would have a decided bearing on that question; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ballard, would a dam 300 feet at Boulder Canyon, the site suggested, control the flood menace, in your opinion! Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How long would it probably take to fill up with silt?

Mr. BALLARD. Well, we have studies along that line. I am not prepared to give the definite figures. Perhaps Doctor Hoxie can, but the plan for the development of the Colorado River provides that some time or other, before very long, a great reservoir shall be constructed somewhere. We think that great reservoir should be constructed in the upper stages of the river in Glen Canyon, and there the silt problem would be solved, so that if it be estimated that a dam below, of 300-foot height would fill up with silt in 80 to 100 years, or in some such time, it is not conclusive that will happen, because in our judgment long before that there will be the big dam up above to correct the situation.

The CHAIRMAN. What would a dam 300 feet high at Boulder Canyon accomplish toward furnishing water for irrigation of lands in the Imperial Valley?

Mr. BALLARD. Well, it would provide for, I should say, just about half as much irrigation of lands at the present time as the 600-foot dam; in other words, about 1,000,000 acres.

The CHAIRMAN. Could an all-American canal be supplied with water from 300 feet in Boulder Canyon, as well as 600 feet?

Mr. BALLARD. I have never given that much study, but my understanding is that would be so. Any storage would be sufficient for the canal.

The CHAIRMAN. Would a 300-foot dam store sufficient water to supply the needs of the cities in southern California, which contemplate the necessity of making some provision for an additional water supply!

Mr. BALLARD. I do not think there is any doubt of it.

The CHAIRMAN. You think a 300-foot dam would accomplish that as well as a 600-foot dam?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir; I think so.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Your question suggested another one, Judge. By the press reports of the last three or four days Mr. Mulholland

has changed his mind about the possibility of Los Angeles being without water in a short time. I see pictures in one of the Los Angeles papers, of the reservoirs, and the storage capacity, which would indicate that Los Angeles would be amply taken care of for some time to come.

Mr. HAYDEN. Have you considered the question of the quantity of power necessary to pump a municipal water supply from the Colorado River, over the mountains, to Los Angeles?

Mr. BALLARD. We have seen the published figures of about 200,000 horsepower, and think they are reasonably correct, to pump 1,000 second-feet, which is a supply of water for an additional 5.000.000 people, as I understand it. That question leads to this consideration, which you will find in our statement, that all of that power would not be required at once, because all of the water would not be required at once. The amount of water Los Angeles is figuring, that Mr. Mulholland is talking about bringing from the Colorado River, is, according to his statement, sufficient for 5,000,000 more people, and the power demand, or power requirement would be in proportion as that population grows, as the consumption of water continues.

There is one statement which I did not put in with respect to that, and another item I would suggest that the committee might look into, if it is considering the Los Angeles water supply seriously in connection with this Boulder Dam proposition. Personally our engineers do not think that Mr. Mulholland, or the people who have advocated the necessity for this water from the Colorado River for Los Angeles, that that water will be needed for a good many years to

come.

Mr. HAYDEN. Then pumping water for the city of Los Angeles could not be counted upon as an immediate source of revenue by the sale of power from the Boulder Canyon Dam?

Mr. BALLARD, No; I think not. From the reports I have seen there is no doubt with the completion of the present aqueduct system. which is only partially completed, because they have not installed the upper reservoir, there would be water enough for something over three million people, and the reports I have seen also state that there is an additional water supply up in the river for three million more people, and in addition to that there are other water supplies, and with the metering of all the water consumers in Los Angeles, and the elimination of waste, and assuming certain annexations to the city, which would follow, as the city grows, and the converting into water now used for irrigation purposes to domestic purposes, altogether there is water enough for 10.000.000 people in the neighborhood of Los Angeles, before any Colorado River water is necessary. Mr. HAYDEN. There is another question of which I made note of it at the time. You described a certain tunnel, I believe, 15 feet in diameter, and how long was it?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes; our Florence Lake Tunnel, in the Big Creek project is 15 feet in diameter. 13 miles long. It is under construction.

Mr. HAYDEN. At a cost of how much per mile?

Mr. BALLARD. Well, a little over $1,000,000. The tunnel costs in the neighborhood of $16,000,000.

Mr. HAYDEN. A little over $1,000,000 a mile to build a tunnel 15 feet in diameter?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HAYDEN. What is the capacity of that tunnel?

Mr. BALLARD. The capacity is 1,200 second-feet.

Mr. HAYDEN. There has been considerable talk of tunneling in Arizona to carry water from one place to another. I would like to ask if your engineers have taken occasion to check up the report made by the Arizona Engineering Commission with respect to the irrigation of lands in Arizona?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes; they have checked that report.

Mr. HAYDEN. Do you know what their conclusions were?

Mr. BALLARD. I do not remember their conclusions. Personally I think they are favorable to the conclusions in the report.

Mr. HAYDEN. Have you had occasion to examine the report made by two engineers named Sturtevant and Stam, for the State of Arizona, for the construction of a dam at Spencer Canyon and a high line canal?

Mr. BALLARD. I think so, but I do not think I have seen that report.

Mr. HOXIE. I have not seen the report of those engineers.

Mr. RAKER. He said he had a statement relative to the water supply for Los Angeles.

Mr. HAYDEN. Have you a further statement that you desire to make?

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, I have a memorandum here.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. May I ask a question?

Mr. BALLARD. I will be glad to answer it.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Mr. Ballard, would the contemplated development along the lines you have described, both this forenoon and afternoon, interfere with the future possible agricultural development in any of the contiguous country?

Mr. BALLARD. No, sir. It would be very beneficial.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Do I understand there is to be some statement of the Los Angeles water supply put in the record?

Mr. RAKER. Let him give it to us.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. I have one I would like to put in before the hearings are closed, and I would like to get this one.

Mr. BALLARD. Do you wish this statement read into the record? The CHAIRMAN. Is it your personal statement?

Mr. BALLARD. No; this statement that I have here was prepared by Doctor Hoxie, and if you wish me to explain it, all right. If you would rather Doctor Hoxie would explain it, he is here.

The CHAIRMAN. I think it would be more proper for the explanation to come from the man who prepared the statement. Mr. BALLARD. I think so myself. It is satisfactory to me. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions?

Mr. RAKER. I understand Mr. Barre, the engineer representing the company, has gone over practically all of these projects that you have named.

Mr. BALLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. RAKER. And has made an examination with the engineers of the company, not only that, but has used the data which has been