Undoubtedly a substantial amount at least of the moneys required for building the dam would be received during the course of the construction. I am fairly familiar with the method of financing that would be adopted by a city; and there are only three ways that a city could raise money to secure an allotment of power:

One would be by direct taxation, which may be disregarded, because that method would not be applied.

Another would be by surplus earnings in the operation of its plants.

The third and most probable way would be by the voting of bonds: and I think if the Secretary of the Interior is a good trader in making his contracts in these different allocations of power he could quite easily secure very substantial sums for use in the course of construction. The construction of a great work like this is going to take quite a few years, of course; and if it was all paid from appropriations made from the Treasury, it would only be three or four million dollars a year, and a lot of that money could be raised from the disposition of power rights as construction goes along. The CHAIRMAN. Have you put in the record the rates in Pasadena as compared with the rates of private companies?

Mr. CARR. I can give both. I have here the report of the Pasadena municipal power and light department for the fiscal year 1922-23; that is the last one gotten out; and on pages 26 and 27 are the rates. I would be glad to file this with the committee. Portions of the report appear in the appendix.

Mr. SWING. Mr. Chairman, may I make a suggestion at this point? The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. SWING. That Senator Evans, who testified here a week or 10 days ago, has sent back since he went to California the rates for many of the cities in southern California, showing those which have municipal plants and those which have private power companies. And just as soon as those can be tabulated they will be filed as an appendix to his testimony.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. CARR. I also have with me a copy of the decision of the California Railroad Commission fixing the rates of the Southern California Edison Co. That was the decision that was handed down in the late fall, as I have said; and that gives the complete rate schedule. It is quite long, and I could file it. Of course, that report is published in the reports of the railroad commission and is available in the library; anybody can refer to it.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, you do not want the whole decision in the record, do you?

Mr. CARR. No, sir; they run over many schedules. Rate schedules are really wonderful things, and it takes a rate expert to determine them. I think it would be better for me to give the case number, and anybody who wants can find it in the library; it is case No. 1759. "In re rates, rules, and practices of Southern California Edison Co." Mr. HUDSPETH. How many rates?

Mr. CARR. These [indicating] are the rates. It covers quite a few pages, and it is technical and would be hard to describe. The entire decision covers 66 typewritten pages.

The CHAIRMAN. We are already getting our record quite volumi

nous.

Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; and I think a reference to this would be sufficient.

Mr. HUDSPETH. Yes.

Mr. CARR. Well, that covers what I think will be helpful to the committee, except as to a consideration of the compact phase of this subject; and I thing it has been suggested that a discussion of that go over to another time.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you want that to go over, Mr. Swing?

Mr. SWING. Yes; I would like to have the full committee present when that is taken up, because Mr. Carr has worked that up pretty carefully.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Mr. Carr, what constitutes the Boulder Dam Association-what organizations?

Mr. CARR. The list is here. You have a copy of that list.
The CHAIRMAN. That is in the record of the hearings.

Mr. CARR. Yes; it is considerably larger than indicated there. There are organizations coming in all the time. I might say that there seems to have been a considerable increase of interest in this project in southern California recently, and the membership is constantly growing. It is an organization of organizations, Mr. Leatherwood

Mr. HUDSPETH (interposing). I see that several of those organizations have been written in in pen and ink?

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. I overlooked that we had the list here. You spoke of the water level being lower at Pasadena than formerly. Is that a permanent or a temporary condition?

Mr. CARR. Well, both. It has been going down because of the increase in population; but it has been very greatly accentuated this year because of the drought. Last year we had somewhat of a water shortage, but there was no particular accentuation of the rate of decline, because it was a cool summer and the draft on the water was very light. We got along very well last summer and got over the bad situation because it was a cool summer. But this year there has been a very serious drought

Mr. LEATHERWOOD (interposing). Have you got any record as to whether your periods of drought in your locality run in cycles?

Mr. CARR. They do, quite largely. I do not pretend to be an expert. Mr. Mulholland is the man best qualified to speak on that subject, and his theory is that they go in cycles, but the cycles are not very definite.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Well, are you not aware of the fact that all over the country there has been a light precipitation during the months in which storage usually takes place in the mountains?

Mr. CARR. I am not familiar with anything except with the section of California on both the east and west sides of the Sierras that affect power and water conditions in southern California.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Well, I think that is true, from observation, all through the intermountain region-that there has been a very light snow fall.

Mr. CARR. Yes. Of course, we feel this in a way that every locally dry season on the Pacific coast might coincide with the wet season on the other side of the mountains. I do not think the two dry seasons coincide; perhaps you know better about it than I do.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Both sides are dry this year.

Mr. CARR. Well, that may be true this year, I do not know; but I mean that generally the wet season in one place may coincide with the dry season in the other, and in that way it is desirable that water be secured from the two storage regions to meet the existence of cycles, which I presume exist everywhere.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. What I was interested in was whether or not your apparent shortage of water was permanent or whether it was due to an unusually dry season?

Mr. CARR. It is permanent, Mr. Leatherwood. Well, I was city attorney away back in 1909 to 1912, in Pasadena, and I know the farsighted men of the city then realized that we were going to be short of domestic water. That feeling has been growing, and it has been better and better understood since, that the city of Pasadena, with just a normal increase in population, would have to get an additional water supply; and for as much as six or eight years last past the responsible city officials have been very carefully investigating, and spending money in investigating, every possible source of local supply.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. What has been the normal depth of your water table?

Mr. CARR. I can not give you those figures. I can wire to the engineer.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. I just wanted to know approximately.

Mr. CARR. I might say, in a general way, that they are going down. I want to say, as to this water from the Colorado River, that none of us fool ourselves into the belief that it is going to be cheap water; it is going to be expensive water. But we have got to have domestic water, regardless of the expense; we have got to have domestic water in order to get along.

The CHAIRMAN. Have not your engineers been able to find any other source of water supply that will be ample as the years go by! Mr. CARR. No, sir; I tried to make that clear. The Mono Valley supply, as Mr. Mulholland pointed out, is small; and in addition to that, there are legal obstacles that are practically insurmountable. It would take some time to go into that, but I can do so if the committee desires.

The CHAIRMAN. Where do you get your present supply?

Mr. CARR. Right back in the mountains near the city; but that is not sufficient to supply the city at its present rate of growth. The whole country there is gradually filling up. Pasadena went into the question of getting a supply at Little Bear lake; it investigated that; and it investigated the sources up North; and it is now spending a large amount of money to get a temporary supply from the San Gabriel River; and the figures given me by the city's water engineer indicate that, if it is successful in that, it would tide over the city for 10 years, which would be about the time it would take to get the water from the Colorado River; and it does not seem to be possible to get any supply to meet that growth otherwiseand by that I do not mean any excessive growth; I mean just the normal growth. I do not suppose the committee would be interested in the charts made by our utilities department as to the estimates of the growth. I have one which the engineer furnished me; and it

shows that the city people figure very closely from the water meters and the light meters; and they figured that out carefully, as to the rate of growth. The city of Pasadena is growing steadily; it is not growing as fast as some of the other communities; but still it is growing rapidly.

Mr. HUDSPETH. Mr. Carr, does your city enjoy such progressive growth as the city of San Diego?

Mr. CARR. I do not think it is growing as fast as San Diego.
Mr. HUDSPETH. Or Los Angeles?

Mr. CARR. Not as fast as Los Angeles and not as fast as Long Beach, but it is growing steadily in population.

The CHAIRMAN. It is purely a residence city; you do not have any manufacturing there?

Mr. CARR. There is very little manufacturing there; it is almost purely a residential city.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. One other question, Mr. Carr: I infer from what you have already said that the city of Pasadena has its own municipal lighting plant?

Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; and it has had it for over 15 years.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. And we have already had an explanation as to the condition of Los Angeles. I do not recall whether the gentlemen that represented San Diego said theirs was a municipal plant or not? Mr. CARR. No; they have not a municipal plant.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. What other municipalities do you know of that have them besides your own city and Los Angeles?

Mr. CARR. Riverside has one. I think Riverside has about the oldest municipal plant. The city of Glendola has one, and I think the city of Azusa, and I think there are several of the smaller cities that have them.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Now, what is the plan of your association, in case the great dam is put in the Colorado River: Would it be that the privately owned plants that are supplying the various municipalities would buy their power from the Government at the dam or near there?

Mr. CARR. There has been a good deal of talk about that, and our idea, as a whole, has been that the community should be given a reasonable opportunity to participate in the advantages from the dam.

Now, it is not easy, of course, to work out a scheme that would involve some district organization, Mr. Leatherwood; and it was thought that this organization of which Mayor Evans is executive director would be a very potent force in working out some plan of that kind, and that the time to do it would be after the Government had acted.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. I was wondering what the plan would have in contemplation, say, in case of a city where it was furnished with electric energy from a private corporation; whether or not it would be the purpose of the plan to take that over into municipal control, or whether or not the plant now furnishing your electrical energy would get its source of supply from some main source and distribute it to the consumers?

Mr. CARR. I do not think you can generalize as to the communities: conditions differ in the various communities; some very likely would

want to take over the local plant and go into the district and participate directly in this; some might not. It is impossible to say what 60 or 70 cities would want.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Well, then, I think we are safe in assuming that there is no general plan of procedure outside of such cities where they already own their electric plant?

Mr. CARR. No: that is hardly an accurate assumption. The matter has been very fully discussed by representatives of the cities that are members of this Boulder Dam Association, and they all feel that efforts should be made to work out a district as soon as the Government acts, and as soon as a project is assured, and that that association would be a convenient agency to enable them to get together and figure out the most available way of handling it. There has been very wide discussion of that.

Mr. SWING. It has also been discussed very largely at the League of Municipalities.

Mr. CARR. Yes; it is a matter that has been discussed very widely. Mr. LEATHERWOOD. I have no doubt of that. I just wanted to know what the plan was?

Mr. CARR. It is very hard to work out a plan until there is something definite to plan on.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. In cities where you have private ownership, are they operating under a franchise granted by the municipality? Mr. CARR. That would require a legal discussion to answer that. Mr. LEATHERWOOD. You misunderstood me. I am not asking for a legal discussion at all. I am asking, are they operating under a franchise granted by the city?

Mr. CARR. I will have to answer that yes and no. So far as the lighting business is concerned, they have, in most instances, a constitutional franchise. In 1879, the State of California, as a matter of State policy, adopted a constitutional amendment which provided that companies furnishing water, and gas for lighting and electricity for lighting should have the right to use the streets of a city, except where there was a publicly owned plant.

That was of general application. But it did not cover the use of the streets for gas pipes, for furnishing gas for heating, or for electric lines, or for conduits, for furnishing electricity for power. Mr. LEATHERWOOD. All right; I see.

Mr. CARR. So that, theoretically, if the companies have complied with the law, they have had to get a franchise from the municipality for the use of the streets for furnishing electricity for power. I am under the impression that generally they have not done that: in some instances, they have done that. That is why I could not answer you directly.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Let us assume a case of this kind: That a private company is operating in one of your cities or towns, and that it has a franchise permitting it to operate for a definite period of time, say 25 or 50 years: Would you say that the municipality could terminate that franchise?

Mr. CARR. The powers of eminent domain in California are quite broad, and they could acquire it through eminent domain.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. That is, the city could acquire the plant and take it over?