Under the all-American canal-that is, the Mesa land that could not be cultivated except by diversion in the United States-30,000

acres.

In the Delta south of Volcano Lake and Bee River, 250,000 acres. In Sonora, 265,000 acres.

I assume that the 265,000 acres includes lands on the Sonora Mesa which could only be cultivated by a diversion from the Colorado River in the United States, or by pumping.

Mr. Davis gives the grand total in Mexico irrigable from the Colorado River as 800,000 acres; so that your figures correspond with his, except that he makes no mention of the Laguna Salada, otherwise known as the Pattie Basin; but he does include the Sonora Mesa. Mr. ROSE. Well, our engineers have been down there in boats. A man who has been in the Imperial Valley for 15 years has been down there; and this map has been prepared by him for this committee; and he prepared it to give the committee information, and not to mislead the committee; and he tells me that there are 340,000 acres under the present canal system, not including the 40,000 acres, of course, in the Mesa. Now, that is as reliable information as you can get; and I venture to say that he consulted with the Mexican land owners or their engineers. In fact, I know he did; because I sat in the gathering myself.

Mr. HAYDEN. The 340,000 acres include land in the Saiz Levee area?

Mr. ROSE. It includes lands in our present system, down into here [indicating] and here [indicating]; lands that can be irrigated by the present system.

Mr. HAYDEN. It may be that the discrepancy between the figures of your engineer and Mr. Davis's figures arises from the fact that the levee system has been considerably extended in old Mexico since the Davis report.

Mr. ROSE. This land [indicating] has been taken in since his report. When Mr. Davis made his report this land was not used; this land is new development. Of course, the opening of those canals has turned in all of this land, and as I say, they are now asking for a thousand second-feet of water, those Mexican land owners, to come down and irrigate this country here [indicating].

Mr. HAYDEN. If you will have somebody furnish the committee with the information, based upon diversions in Mexico after the water has passed into their control, so that the United States has nothing further to do with it, I would like to have that information very much.

Mr. RAKER. Right in that connection, will you tell the committee how much of this land in lower California, if any, was ever irrigated before your people started this development?

Mr. ROSE. Not one acre.

Mr. HUDSPETH. Mr. Rose, are the American owners of land in Mexico, who are interested in the land irrigated under your project, in favor of the building of this Boulder Canyon Dam?

Mr. ROSE. They are in favor of building a dam. Let me explain the situation. There is the First National Bank in Los Angeles, which is the hub of certain interests.

Mr. RAKER. What is the name of that bank?

Mr. ROSE. The First National Bank. Mr. Chandler is a director of that bank. I think Brant was a director of that bank. I think General Sherman was. I think you will find that some representatives of the Edison Co.--and one of their representativets is here— are directors in that bank. There is an interwoven interest there, apparently; and what Mr. Chandler would like would be a reservoir sufficiently high to give him sufficient water, cutting off the canal and cutting off the power possibilities. That is what you will find. Mr. RAKER. What is that? I did not understand that.

Mr. ROSE. What Chandler would like, with his associates, the Edison Co., would be a dam that would be high enough that would not generate any power to compete with them, and a dam high enough to furnish additional water so that he can extend the irrigation over his lands.

Mr. RAKER. I understand that that is the Mr. Chandler who has been requested to appear here?

Mr. ROSE. It is Harry Chandler.

Mr. RAKER. I understand that that is the same Chandler that you referred to?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

Mr. RAKER. So that if he comes we will get the whole story?
Mr. ROSE. Maybe.

Mr. HUDSPETH. Is he the owner of these lands?

Mr. ROSE. They are known as the Chandler lands. Chandler and General Sherman and Brand were the main owners; and there is also ex-Governor Gillette, of California. I do not know them all, but those are the main owners of that land.

Mr. HUDSPETH. Just one more question: He would be in favor of building a dam sufficiently high to store the waters so that he would get water sufficient for his lands, but not sufficiently high for power purposes?

Mr. ROSE. That is exactly what he says over his own signature. Mr. LEATHERWOOD. On what do you base that answer?

Mr. ROSE. I base that answer on statements that I have heard him make. I have sat in with him and with the directors of the Edison Co.

Mr. HUDSPETH. And he is interested in power companies himself? Mr. Rose. I do not know that. I would not answer that question. I assume that he is. In fact, I do not know but what I have heard him make the statement. But I can tell you what the interlocking interest is, the hub

Mr. LEATHERWOOD (interposing). Did Mr. Chandler and his associates, so far as you know, contribute anything to the expenses of the trip that Judge Raker referred to this morning?

Mr. ROSE. Only through taxation. The way we raised the money was by taxation; and, of course, we have power to tax what little interest Chandler has on the American side of the line; and to that extent he contributed. But that is a very small sum.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Raised by taxation, how? Do you mean assessed against the water users?

Mr. ROSE. No. The irrigation district has an elected assessor and collector of taxes, the same as a city; it has a board of directors elected the same as a city; it also has a treasurer elected. It has a

great many of the functions of a municipal corporation of the State of California. It is a nonprofit concern, composed of the people in the district. Any qualified elector living in that district, out of 50,000, has a vote in the election of the officials of the district; and while it has no law-making power, it has the function of levying and collecting assessments.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Do you want the committee to understand that they have the power to tax the people for paying the expens of a congressional investigation?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; they have the power to tax them for anything that a city would have the power to tax its people for; that is, so far as it pertained to the delivery or supply of water. They can not make laws to punish people; and they can not change the irrigation act; but so far as carrying out the act is concerned, or so far as collecting money is concerned, or paying off bonds and obligations, that is all right; they can do that. They are also charged with the duty of furnishing an adequate supply of water for the taxpayers within the district; and this method is one of the methods of doing that.

They also have the power to protect the district against floods; and this is also an effort to do that. So that in carying out those two purposes, they certainly have the right to take you gentlemen out there and show you the situation that we are trying to show you 3,000 miles away.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. That is indeed a very interesting statement. In case a taxpayer failed to pay an assessment for the purpose of paying for this congressional trip, how would you enforce that?

Mr. ROSE. We, of course, make up a budget system, just as the Government does; and we put various things in there; and then we put probably $100,000 for contingencies, to be spent for various things that we do not see; that is made up into a budget; and the board meets; and there is a board of equalization: and after hearing complaints, and after hearing the assessor, the thing is decided, according to regular rules and procedure, the same as a county follows; and we are charged with certain duties in spending those moneys.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Mr. Rose, I take it that the purpose of this trip-I not having been fortunate enough to take it-was to have the members of the Committee on Irrigation and the members of the Committee on Appropriations to get a first-hand view of the situation down there?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. And also your purpose was to get legislation favorable to carrying out the views which you have expressed here?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; for the purpose of increasing the water supply and flood control, and getting our canal system on American soil-all of these things are the duty of the board of directors, under the law and the irrigation act of the State of California.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. And for that reason you are so much interested in it that you are willing to spend, I take it, quite a large sum of

money

Mr. ROSE. Oh, we have spent a quarter of a million dollars n this thing: that is just a drop.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD (continuing). To bring about such a feeling as would influence legislation?

Mr. SWING. You do not mean, Mr. Rose, that a quarter of a million dollars was spent on the trip; but that it has been spent in trying to solve the problem?

Mr. ROSE. No, not on the trip; that is a drop in the bucket. For instance, in 1920, the Government passed an act for investigating the storage on the river. We, too, matched that with $20,000; and Southern California matched it all together with $154,000. We put $30,000 in the hands of the Government to make a report on the All-American canal, under an act of Congress, which provided for the State and district to cooperate in that work. And we have spent a large sum of money. I suppose the sum total in attempting to solve this problem would run up to a quarter of a milion dollars. Mr. LEATHERWOOD. But you hope as a result of that trip to get a favorable report on this bill?

Mr. ROSE. We certainly do. We took those Members of Congress out there; we hope to have the Congressmen know of their own knowledge what the conditions were out there.

Mr. ALLGOOD. You are following the same principle now, in spending money to come here and try and get a favorable report? Mr. Rose. Absolutely.

Mr. ALLGOOD. Is there any question of undue influence about it? Mr. Rose. I do not see how. The committee was free; they were not barred; they could hear every side of the case; they saw the physical situation. I can not see that any man can say that there was anything improper in that, from any standpoint.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. Let me ask you, in view of the statement you have just made: Have you any complaint to make about people who might entertain different ideas with reference to the control of the Colorado River advocating their cause and bringing their views before Congress?

Mr. ROSE. No; I have talked with the opposing company in this matter, in a joint meeting with them, when the whole bunch of them sat around; and I have their maps of the dam; and I have discussed the matter with them; and they have told me what they wanted was a low dam below and a high dam above; and they discussed certain things

Mr. LEATHERWOOD (interposing). What do you mean by "above"?

Mr. ROSE. Northern Arizona. I am going to file a map that they presented to us in conference with the Edison Co., telling us that they were willing to spend $40,000,000 a year; and one other thing

Mr. LEATHERWOOD (interposing). Individually, then, you do not concur in any movement, if there should be such a movement, to criticize any interest whatsoever, private, public, or otherwise, that might entertain different views?

Mr. ROSE. Not if they came out openly and above board

Mr. LEATHERWOOD (interposing). Wait a minute; let me finish. With different views with reference to the handling of the Colorado River or the method of its development?

Mr. ROSE. Not a particle. I do think this: That any man who has any views ought to be man enough to come out in the open and present them here; instead of slipping around and presenting them at the back door, when you are away from home.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. What do you mean by that?

Mr. ROSE. We know that there has been propaganda out there, and we have seen it-both by the Chandler people and by the power interests.

Mr. ALLGOOD. You have nothing to cover up, have you?

Mr. ROSE. We have nothing to cover up. We are willing that they should present their case.

Mr. ALLGOOD. And that is the reason you wanted the committee to go out there and see?

Mr. ROSE. Exactly. We wanted them to see it so that they could judge for themselves; and we were willing to have everybody sit around in conference; and we wanted the committee to know that what we were telling them was true.

The CHAIRMAN. How many trips have you and your associates made to Washington for the purpose of presenting these matters over a long period?

Mr. ROSE. I think the first presentation to the committee was probably in 1917; perhaps 1918.

The CHAIRMAN. And you have been coming here every session since then, have you not?

Mr. ROSE. I have been to every session, with the exception of one, since 1912.

The CHAIRMAN. And you get no relief, and but little consideration?

Mr. ROSE. No; we get no relief. I would not say we get little consideration. I think Congress did not have the information on which to act; and I thought the committee in 1919 was very friendly to the proposition; but they lacked information; and we were not able to furnish it--and to show that, they passed a bill providing for obtaining that information, and appropriated $20,000, and provided that we should match it, and we did so; and that gave us an opportunity to help to put that information into the hands of the Government.

And I want to say that not a man in our district suggested Boulder Canyon or any other dam site in that investigation. We put that money into the hands of the Government officials that Congress directed to make that investigation; and I believe that the men who made it, when they take the stand, will say that not a particle of influence was exercised in the district as to when or how they should make that report.

Mr. HUDSPETH. Has any report on the subject come in?

Mr. ROSE. Yes. Secretary Fall made a report to this committee after Mr. Davis had made the investigation.

Mr. SWING. There is a supplemental report, which is just about being completed now.

Mr. HUDSPETH. I understood that there was some other report to come in.

Mr. ROSE. Congress directed that the report be made, and diected that it be made not later than the following December. However, they added to it; and it took a couple of years.

Mr. LEATHERWOOD. One other question: I join with you in condemning propaganda. Have you seen any propaganda, or heard any statements, to the effect that the States of the upper basin,