old Hardy River worked its way back into here [indicating]; and there is a depression in here [indicating]; and it has filled this depression up, and we are attempting to get it into this depresison [indicating]. If it goes into this depression [indicating] we would have a lease of life for 6 or 7 years longer: but at any rate we feel that we can not go far enough to afford protection until the Government moves to get the Boulder Canyon Dam built.

But if this river runs down with 180,000 second-feet, a log jam. or anything else might cause the banks to break.

Mr. RAKER. Right in this connection, did you take the members of this committee that I named this morning out in that place, so that they could see it physically?

Mr. ROSE. We took them around there the best we could; and then we took them on the inter-California railroad here [indicating on map]: we showed them the head gates: we showed them the levee protection works down to Mile Post 26-that has been extended 3 miles since then. Then we took them to Yuma, and down over the levee protection works around there on the Arizona side.

Mr. RAKER. You took them down to old Sonora, did you not?
Mr. ROSE. Some of them went that far. I did not go there.
Mr. RAKER. There are some nice towns in Sonora.

Mr. ROSE. I think there are, Judge Raker, I will let you testify as to that. But that could be stricken out of the record.

Mr. RAKER. No; I want the rest of the committee to know that some of us have seen all of this country.

Mr. ROSE. We went down there, and then we went back and took the railroad at Yuma and went to Laguna Dam, where this canal would start.

Mr. HAYDEN. Let me ask you whether, in your opinion, anything else could be done below Bee River that would aid in carrying the water on to the Gulf?

Mr. Rose. If the river itself does not force itself into this lower area [indicating]; and if we do not succeed in doing it, and the river comes down 180,000 second-feet, it will sweep away the levee. We hope that it will not do it; but probably if it does the same. thing that took place over there [indicating on map] will take place over here [indicating]; there will be a recession, followed by a building up of the grade. But if something above is not done before that fills up and runs back, and this whole line of defense [indicating] is to go. I should say that the whole Imperial Valley might as well move away; because, if it was not for the possibility of putting that into a lower area Imperial Valley might as well go now; because you could not hold that situation.

Mr. HAYDEN. What is the length of the cut from Bee River into the Pescadero River?

Mr. ROSE. Three miles.

Mr. HAYDEN. What did it cost?

Mr. ROSE. It cost, with the dam protection works, about $700,000. Mr. HAYDEN. Has anything been done farther down the Pescadero River?

Mr. ROSE. We are working a good many men over there, trying to steer it in there as fast as possible.

Mr. HAYDEN. What is the difference in elevation at the Bee River Dam and the Gulf: how much is that dam above sea level?

Mr. Rose. I think it is about 68 feet.

Mr. HAYDEN. There is 68 feet fall from that dam to the mouth of the river?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

Mr. HAYDEN. If the channel could be shortened by cutting bends, would it not cause the water to drain off quickly to the Gulf?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; it would cause it to drain off somewhat more quickly. That would be temporary, however; it would last some time. But when you talk about starting to cut a channel in there for that distance, you are talking about spending some money.

Mr. HAYDEN. It would cost a considerable sum?

Mr. ROSE. It would run into considerable expense: more than the building of the dam, and in my opinion would only be a temporary protection, and would not fulfill the other purposes which the other project would.

Mr. HAYDEN. Suppose Congress should conclude to take two bites at this cherry and provide first for storage for flood control in the canyon above, and leave the construction of the all-American canal and the reclamation of additional lands for future legislation? Mr. ROSE. Well, it would leave us subject to all the things I have told you about. And in addition to that, there would be an augmented supply of water, and consequently it would enable these people to go in and irrigate a million acres, instead of 200,000 acres in Mexico, that we would still have to furnish water for. I think you would be simply piling the hurden on us. You would be relieving us as to the flood protection; but you would pile up our troubles in the other respects.

Mr. HAYDEN. How many acres of land is it possible to irrigate in old Mexico by the waters of the Colorado River by diversion below the international boundary line? The present diversion is in the United States, and therefore we can control it. And if this water flowed across into Mexico, and was available there for their use, how many acres could be irrigated in Mexico?

Mr. ROSE. There is under gravity in old Mexico, from Laguna dam-at least, if it was in Mexico I should say, about 1,000,000

acres.

Mr. HAYDEN. On what do you base those figures?

Mr. ROSE. I base those figures on this entire area taking the water [indicating]. Of course, if they had the fight that we had, they would have to go down in here [indicating on map]; but if the flow was regulated so that they could handle it, they could take the water out here [indicating], and taking the same canal system they could extend it down here [indicating]. There is a canal down in here [indicating] now; and they can irrigate every acre there is down in there [indicating]. This canal [indicating] of 42 feet above sea level, can be carried on to this point [indicating] and carried through here [indicating], where it is only 12 feet; and while that [indicating] is shown to be a sea, it is a dry sea. And they can take the water down around here [indicating].

The CHAIRMAN. You should indicate by name the localities to which you refer. You say "here" and "there" and that does not mean anything when it is read in the record.

Mr. ROSE. It will not show anything in the record; I will admit that.

I will start over: Following the Ockerson levee down to the southern boundary of the State of Arizona, putting a siphon under the river, across to the mesa, and then following down along the mesa line, in the State of Sonora, old Mexico, to the Gulf. That would enable them to irrigate probably 800,000 acres. Most of it

is Chandler land in there.

Then they could start again from Cudahy check and go in Mexico along the canal system, following along what is known as Volcano Lake; to what is known as the Solfatara Canal, and following the Solfatara Canal and going by Tecolote, to a point below the Cocopah Mountains, and around to a point below the international boundary line. And then, by building a cut of 25 feet for a distance of 3 miles, running west of the Cocopah Mountains in Lower California, Mexico, there is an area of at least 300,000 acres of additional land that can be irrigated from the present elevation by gravity.

The CHAIRMAN. Is any of this land that you speak of in private ownership?

Mr. Rose. It is virtually all in private ownership, except in this land lying west of the Cocopah Mountains.

The CHAIRMAN. Who owns this stretch of country along the Pescadero River?

Mr. Rose. It is largely owned by what is known as the Chandler Syndicate.

Mr. HAYDEN. On the assumption that the Colorado River was regulated by a great reservoir and the water had passed out of the United States into Mexico, you say that you think there are about 1,000,000 acres of land in old Mexico that could be served from that water supply?

Mr. ROSE. I did.

Mr. HAYDEN. Have you had the services of any engineer to check up your guess on that area of irrigable land in Mexico?

Mr. ROSE. No; I say that is the engineer's report, taken from the statement of their own engineer, and the best information our engineers can gather, without going in there and making a careful detailed survey.

Mr. HAYDEN. What engineer made the figures?

Mr. Rose. Mr. Allison furnished quite a bit of that informationthe Mexican company's engineer: and when I say our own engineer, I mean Mr. Carberry, who is engineer of the Imperial Irrigation District, and also general manager of our Mexican company. That is based on data that has been gathered in for the last 20 years. Mr. HAYDEN. I notice that the map on the wall says "Mesa lands in Mexico" some 42.000 acres?

Mr. ROSE. That is this strip of land [indicating on map].

Mr. HAYDEN. That, of course, could not be surved by diversion from the Colorado River in Mexico?

Mr. ROSE. No; it would follow that that little strip would be cut

out.

Mr. HAYDEN. Well, that 42,000 acres could not be served by a diversion in Mexico?

Mr. ROSE. No.

Mr. HAYDEN. Then it says on the map "Delta lands of the Colorado River Land Co., 510,000 acres." That is the land that belongs to Harry Chandler?

Mr. ROSE. That is the land that belongs to Chandler.

Mr. HAYDEN. I have seen a statement somewhere that there is a tremendous tide at the mouth of the Gulf of California, which backs the water up and overflows some 250,000 acres in the Colorado Delta. That land could not be placed under irrigation, because it is either covered by the tide water from the Gulf or by the back water from the river, which is held back by the tide?

Mr. ROSE. Yes. Now, to show you how much that is: There is a pumping plant at Revel, and taking it around here [indicating] that irrigates quite a lot of land. Now, you can look at the size of those lands, as compared with 604.000 acres in Imperial Valley, and you can see very readily where the land lies there.

Mr. HAYDEN. The map further states that there are Sonora lands, 550,000 acres. That must refer to the lands of the Sonora Mesa?

Mr. ROSE. Partly that, and partly it refers to these lands in here [indicating]; that [indicating] is the old California and Sonora line.

Mr. HAYDEN. Apparently there is a strip of land between the mesa and the old channel of the Colorado River in Sonora ?

Mr. ROSE. But there is a map that shows along the mesa 297,000 acres that can be irrigated by gravity.

Mr. HAYDEN. That would be from water diverted in the United States. I am trying to find out how much land there is, according to your figures, that can be irrigated by diversion in Mexico after the water had passed out of the control of the United States?

Mr. ROSE. You mean purely by gravity?

Mr. HAYDEN. By gravity only.

Mr. ROSE. I have told you what I thought about that.

Mr. HAYDEN. The Pattie Basin which is referred to on the map is in the Laguna Salada area?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

Mr. HAYDEN. What is the character of that area?

Mr. ROSE. It is nice, sandy soil.

Mr. HAYDEN. By its name, Laguna Salada, I presume it has been covered by salt water?

Mr. ROSE. It probably has. But as I told you there is a pump here [indicating on map]; they are pumping it around and using quite a lot now.

But

Mr. HAYDEN. How much do you mean by "quite a lot "? Mr. ROSE. I think there are 7,000 or 8,000 acres in there. that is somewhat uncertain; when that canal is built that is going to cut it away from their pumps.

Mr. HAYDEN. What is the altitude of the Laguna Salada area? Mr. ROSE. About 15 feet.

Mr. HAYDEN. Above sea level?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

Mr. HAYDEN. How does the water get in to the Laguna Salada? Mr. Rose. It used to back in there in heavy rains and storms. I have never seen it back in there, but the Mexicans tell me it has backed in there during the last 25 years. However, I have never seen any salt water backing in there.

Mr. HAYDEN. The effect of salt water from the Gulf of California backing in there by tidal action would be to deposit salt in the Laguna Salada Basin?

Mr. Rose. Yes, just exactly as in the Imperial Valley. That was all the sea once.

Mr. HAYDEN. Then the bottom of the Pattie Basin or Laguna Salada must be impregnated with salt?

Mr. ROSE. It is impregnated with salt; but a good portion of that land is good irrigable land; and they have been talking about using it for years. And I have been over practically every foot of that land, and I have talked to people about it for the last 20 years, and I know what I am talking about.

Mr. HAYDEN. It is your estimate that approximately 1,000,000 acres could be cultivated in Mexico with water from the Colorado River?

Mr. ROSE. Absolutely.

Mr. HAYDEN. I am very much interested to know about that, because I have seen it estimated that 2,000,000 acres of land could be irrigated in Mexico by diversions below the boundary line. If you have any engineering information that is at all accurate, that is not guesswork, I would like very much to have it.

Mr. ROSE. Well, you say you want information that is not guesswork. You know and I know that a man familiar with irrigation and who has followed it and been interested in the building of canals can tell something about those things. I started in with the Imperial Valley before the water got in there; and I know the situation of the country; and I know whether it can be irrigated or not. Nobody has gone in and made a detailed survey, because it would cost $150,000 to find out, with apparently no object in doing so. Those people may have the information. If they have it, they will be very slow to furnish it.

Mr. HAYDEN. Nevertheless, there are maps upon which an engineer can measure out the gross area that can be irrigated in Mexico from the Colorado River?

Mr. ROSE. That is exactly what has been done.

Mr. HAYDEN. But the information you have upon that map on the wall is based upon diversions from the Colorado River within the United States?

Mr. ROSE. Mostly.

Mr. HAYDEN. I want to eliminate that feature and find out how much land can be irrigated in Mexico after the water has crossed the international boundary. If you have any way of getting that information to the committee, I, for one, would like very much to have it.

Mr. ROSE. I will first say that, of course, we are not going to spend a great many thousands of dollars to furnish that in detail, because I do not think it is necessary. I think the committee can

see that it is not necessary to do that. But I am going to say to the committee under oath that there are at least 800.000 acres in Mexico that can be irrigated by gravity in lower California to-dayby gravity from the Colorado River, after the water reaches the Republic of Mexico.

Mr. HAYDEN. The figures given by A. P. Davis, in his report on the "Problems of the Imperial Valley and Vicinity" are as follows: In Mexico. under the Imperial Canal, 225,000 acres.