On private employment, of course, in general, the Federal Government cannot act, only if it is an activity such as transportation and communication; and while our railroad brotherhoods are thoroughly and completely anti-Communist, I am not prepared to say that the unions in the field of communications, in certain groups, are completely anti-Communist. I do know that the A. F. of L. unions are, but the question has been very seriously raised in regard to the others.

These are a few fields in which legislation could be explored. There

are many more.

As a final recommendation, I would respectfully submit that this committee call upon the Attorney General to convene a conference of 80 to 100 persons interested in this problem and qualified by experience and training to consider it; such persons to include members of the bar, political and social scientists, and Members of the Senate and the House from both parties; such a conference to explore this field and prepare preliminary drafts suggesting a possible approach to each subject, an approach which would actually protect the civil liberties of all of our people, and preserve from attacks of foreign and domestic foes the Constitution which itself guarantees these rights.

I would like, then, to add to that statement, gentlemen, what seems to me—and here I speak in a purely personal capacity-a very unfortunate trend of indicating that there is less loyalty in the American free trade-union movement than in other free organizations.

My own feeling is that the reverse is true: in the free trade-unions of our country you will find more anticommunistic activity, more effective attacks on the Communists, than in almost any other place.

I am reminded of what someone said with regard to Arthur Holder, the head of the British miners, who is a Communist. Someone said:

The test will soon come to see if Arthur Holder is more of a Communist or more of a trade-unionist.

That is a distinction which holds in the great majority of our tradeunions. In their ranks will be found hundreds of men and women who could be of valuable assistance to a committee exploring the field and to a committee drafting approaches such as I suggest the Attorney General could call in cooperation with this committee.

I shall be very happy to answer specific questions.

Mr. NIXON. Mr. McDowell, do you have some questions at this time? Mr. MCDOWELL. No, Mr. Chairman; I have no questions. It is very obvious from listening to Miss Borchardt, and reading her statement here, that her mind has encompassed a very wide field of civil rights. I think she has made a very substantial contribution to the committee, and I want to thank her for coming here.

Mr. NIXON. I might say, also, that the committee, in its consideration of this legislation last year, heard from a representative of the American Federation of Labor, Mr. William Green. We are very much aware of the fact that some of the most outspoken and effective opponents of communism in the United States are members of labor organizations and leaders of labor organizations.

I think, too, that our investigations have revealed the fact that as far as the rank and file of labor organizations is concerned-and Mr. McDowell particularly brought this out on several occasionsthe Communists have had little effect on winning them to their hearts.

But due to the peculiar ability, and the special attention to detail, procedure, the work that the Communist trade-union leaders have exhibited in America, they have been able to capture, in some instances, control of some key unions.

I wish to assure you that in our deliberations, and in our consideration of legislation, we certainly intend to bear in mind the very helpful suggestion which you have made that the truly American trade-union leaders should be given a chance to make any contributions that they see fit to make.

Miss BORCHARDT. May I say this: That I am in agreement, as I think you gentlemen are, with the last witness, that we must direct our activities in meeting the evil, against activities of the Communists, or any other foe. We can never attack the ideas or the speeches of American citizens. But from the very nature of our Government, we must find a means of preventing those activities in which they engage from destroying the very liberties which they enjoy, and under which they seek to destroy us.

Mr. NIXON. I think that is a very pertinent comment.

I would like to say, Miss Borchardt that the committee expresses its thanks to you at this time for appearing, and we also wish to express our regret that you had to wait beyond the time that you were originally scheduled to appear. I think you will recognize that in congressional hearings sometimes we cannot run exactly on a clocklike schedule. We did appreciate your waiting over and giving us the benefit of your thinking on this problem.

Miss BORCHARDT. It was very interesting, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. NIXON. I will announce at this time that the witnesses scheduled for tomorrow will be Mr. Adolph A. Berle, Jr., at 10 o'clock; Mr. Morris Ernst at 2 o'clock; Mr. Raymond Moley at 3. On Thursday morning the witness scheduled will be Mr. George Dimitrov, former head of the Bulgarian Agrarian Union at 10; Mr. James Burnham at 2; and Mrs. Dorothy Thompson at 3. The schedule for Friday will be announced probably tomorrow or Thursday morning.

The session will recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 4: 30 p. m., the hearing was adjourned, to reconvene at 10 a. m., Wednesday, February 11, 1948.)

HEARINGS ON PROPOSED LEGISLATION TO CURB OR CONTROL THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF THE UNITED STATES

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 1948

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON LEGISLATION OF THE COMMITTEE

ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES,

Washington, D. C.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to order, at 10: 15 a. m., in room 225, Old House Office Building, Hon. John McDowell presiding. Committee members present: Representatives McDowell and Rankin.

Also present: Representative Charles J. Kersten.

Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator, and Robert B. Gaston, investigator for the Committee on Un-American Activities.

Mr. MCDOWELL. The committee will be in order.

I have been informed that the chairman of the subcommittee, Mr. Richard Nixon, of California, was injured this morning when he fell on the ice and fractured both elbows; so, though Mr. Nixon is now in the hospital for an examination, the hearings will continue today and will probably continue as now scheduled.

However, we will know more about that when we hear from Mr. Nixon.

Mr. Stripling, do you have a witness?

Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Adolf Berle.

Mr. MCDOWELL. Mr. Berle, it is the custom of the subcommittee to swear the witnesses.

Will you raise your right hand, sir?

Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you will give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. BERLE. I do.

Mr. MCDOWELL. Will you identify Mr. Berle, Mr. Stripling?

TESTIMONY OF ADOLF A. BERLE, JR., ATTORNEY AT LAW,

NEW YORK, N. Y.

Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Berle, will you please state your full name and address?

Mr. BERLE. My name is Adolf A. Berle, Jr. I am an attorney at law in New York City. I am also a professor of law at Columbia University Law School.

I was Assistant Secretary of State for some years.

Mr. STRIPLING. For further identification in the record, Mr. Berle, would you give some of the other positions you have held, in or out of the Government?

249

Mr. BERLE. I was one of the staff of specialists at the Versailles Peace Conference dealing with Russian affairs.

I have been a professor at Columbia for a great many years.

I was special attorney for the Reconstruction Finance Corporation.

I was chamberlain-that would be the same as treasurer-of the city of New York in the first LaGuardia administration.

I was Assistant Secretary of State of the United States from 1938 to 1944.

I was Ambassador to Brazil from then until after the end of the war, returning here in 1946.

Mr. STRIPLING. Is that sufficient, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McDOWELL. Yes.

Mr. BERLE. I have some other odd jobs, Chief of the Diplomatic Corps of various delegations, and so on.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, whom does he represent now?

Mr. STRIPLING. He is here at the invitation of the committee to give his opinion of recommendations regarding the proposed legislation which is before this committee, which would seek to curb or outlaw the Communist Party.

Mr. MCDOWELL. Mr. Berle's long years of experience in the various matters, political and otherwise, will be of great help to the com

mittee.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't have to introduce Mr. Berle to me. We have met many, many times; but I simply wanted to know whom he represented here today.

Mr. BERLE. I am here at the invitation of the committee. I am chairman of what is called the Liberal Party of New York; roughly, an anti-Tammany wing of the group which has actively cooperated with the Democrats in the past but is not quite able to go along with Tammany Hall.

However, I appear here today personally, because I was invited. Mr. RANKIN. Where does that wing fit in between the regular Democrats, the Republicans, the Marcantonioites, the American Labor Party,and the Henry Wallace "new escapade"?

Mr. BERLE. They have been continuously and bitterly opposed to Mr. Marcantonio and to the Wallace "escapade"; and to the American Labor Party since the time when the Communist group captured the Labor Party, as it did 3 or 4 years ago.

Mr. RANKIN. At the time they mobbed that fellow who was trying to help, around the polls?

Mr. BERLE. I don't think-I think that was a different campaign, if I may say so.

Mr. RANKIN. I think that was it.

Mr. BERLE. The Communist Party captured the so-called American Labor Party prior to that time.

Mr. MCDOWELL. Do you have a statement?

Mr. RANKIN. You are still in the Democratic Party?

Mr. BERLE. Nationally, I have cooperated with the Democratic Party right along. In New York, I have commonly stayed with the group that backed Mayor LaGuardia. That would be independent in the State and city though, State and nationally, we cooperated with the Democratic Party.

Mr. MCDOWELL. You have a statement, Mr. Berle?

Mr. BERLE. I have, sir, a memorandum here.

Mr. MCDOWELL. The committee would be pleased to hear from you. Mr. BERLE. The committee has under consideration, as I understand it, two bills: One is the so-called McDonough bill, H. R. 4581, and the other, the so-called Mundt bill, H. R. 4422.

I understand, likewise, that there is pending before another committee a bill substantially the same as H. R. 4422, which relates to the declaration, by legislation, that the Communist Party is an agent of a foreign principal and therefore should be registered under the existing Foreign Registration Act.

Mr. MCDOWELL. Is that the Cole bill?

Mr. BERLE. I believe so, and if I may, I would like to speak to those three bills.

I am opposed to legislation to outlaw the Communist Party at this time. It seems both unnecessary and, what is still worse, ineffective. The Communist Party members who are registered as such are not very effective opponents of the democratic system. Everybody knows who he is and distrusts what he does and consistently declines to support him in the part of the country with which I am familiar.

The known and declared Communists are not engaging any very great amount of support, and their capacity for damage is not too great. They are a nuisance and an irritant and make trouble, but as for being any real threat to the United States, when they are declared and out in the open, I don't think that they are a real threat.

They become dangerous when they go under cover. The so-called crypto-Communist, that is to say, the man who really has pledged his allegiance to communism but who conceals that fact, is in my judgment a great deal more dangerous. If you outlaw the Communist Party, all that would happen is that those men would change their party affiliations, or organize a new party and merely work where you couldn't see them.

For example, at this minute in the American Labor Party there are a great many people, probably the dominant group in the American Labor Party today, who were at one time or another registered in the Communist Party, and all that has happened by their change from the party which is here under attack to a party with a more innocent name has been that you don't know quite where they are.

We know them pretty well in New York, because we know them individually.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Berle, is it not a fact that the most dangerous Communists in America are the ones who are what you might call underground?

Mr. BERLE. I think so.

Mr. RANKIN. And who do not admit that they are members of the Communist Party but who are affiliated with the Comintern in carrying out the policies, trying to carry out the policies, of the Comintern? Mr. BERLE. I suppose they would be affiliated with the Comintern and now probably are part of the Russian foreign office appartus. Mr. RANKIN. You consider that the greatest danger of them all? Mr. BERLE. Yes; I think the danger can be very much exaggerated, but those are the fellows who make the trouble, in my experience.