of a considerable amount of information without dipping into the funds that I would rather see spent on munitions than I would on the gathering of statistics, and if the Census had these funds and was in position to use them, that seemed to me a genuine economy all around. The CHAIRMAN. The factor of economy was discussed here yesterday, and you being present now, I wanted to get you to inject into the hearings what we had previously discussed. Now, then, in the matter of a determination as to the method of procedure under schedules that are to be prepared to gather and collect information by the Bureau of the Census, in the event of the enactment of one of these bills, what do you believe would be the proper course to prevent an overlapping of the efforts and energies of different agencies, or conflict with the prerogatives of the different agencies of Government? Do you have any idea on that?

Mr. MAY. Well, that goes into an issue that is somewhat beyond my story, sir, but I would think this, that there is established within government, with the Bureau of the Budget, the Division of Statistical Standards, which is, according to my understanding, supposed to exercise the function of seeing that there is not undue overlapping of functions, and duplication of functions by a number of statistical agencies, or that one statistical agency has not tried to enter into the field of another statistical agency that has better facilities for doing that particular job. Whether or not the present act, without writing something specifically into it, giving some jurisdiction to the Division of Statistical Standards, sufficiently safeguards it or not, I do not know, but in any event it would seem to me that the function in government of safeguarding the interests of various statistical bodies and economic and analytical bodies, does rest in that particular body of the Division of Statistical Standards, and I would think that was the agency perhaps that was in position to emphasize the most objective authority over that sort of thing.

The CHAIRMAN. As the representative of the Defense Office of Production, would you feel free to commit a policy of that Office to an agreement that the Division of Statistical Standards, under the Director of the Budget, should be the sole controlling factor in the determination of what should constitute a schedule of inquiry? Would you feel free to commit yourself on that?

Mr. MAY. It already is there, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. But as a policy from the Defense Office of Production Management.

Mr. MAY. I think it is necessary, and I have always acceded to that. My office is charged with taking the first look and giving advice on the development of schedules and questionnaires that are sent out to gather information, but there is an authority above it in the Division of Statistical Standards, and our procedure is to get every defense agency, when it is thinking of sending out a schedule, to pull our advisory man in from the very beginning, before it is even developed, and we then, in turn, are responsible and always invite the Division of Statistical Standards and try to get one of their men in from the verv beginning. Since it is his job to look over, and to know, not only guess the defense schedules that are being prepared and have been prepared and sent out, but also to know the schedules that are being sent out any place in Government, that is the place to which we turn. The authority is already there, and it is always being used. I am not only content with it, but I think it is necessary.

The CHAIRMAN. Then, you would be willing to commit yourself that that would be the policy of the Defense Office of Production Management?

Mr. MAY. Yes, sir. It always has been one to which we have subscribed, and it works very well.

The CHAIRMAN. You feel free to make that commitment to this committee, do you?

Mr. MAY. If I understand you correctly, sir, you are simply saying, do we feel there ought to be an over-all authority that passes on schedules asking for information before they go out. I say yes, I think there should be, and that the Division of Statistical Standards has that at the present time, and we are using it, and I think it works out very well.

Mr. KRAMER. And who is going to be cloaked with the authority and responsibility of preparing the questionnaires, so that we do not have buck passing later on, where O. P. M. will send us to Priority, and Priority sends us to the Census, and Census sends us to the Interior?

Mr. MAY. I don't think that arises. Anybody can prepare a questionnaire.

Mr. KRAMER. But you should get your minds together on one questionnaire, at one time, and then, after you once send it out, like you do your P. D. Q. applications in O. P. M., not change them tomorrow. You run the printing press all night over there, and tomorrow when they come out, they are sent to the industry, and next day you change them again and send a different questionnaire to them. If you have that repeated in this instance, you will never get anywhere. You will have industry "goofey." They are pretty nearly that now. Mr. MAY. I firmly believe there should be such a central authority as has been set up in the Bureau of the Budget.

Mr. KRAMER. Consolidate your minds on the questionnaire and make it as simple as possible, because industry today is confronted with so much of Government regulation, and if you inject a few more regulations, they will throw up their hands and quit.

Mr. MAY. I fully agree, and my interest in this sort of thing is to avoid some of it if we can. But we do need the information.

The CHAIRMAN. Naturally my question was propounded with an objective in view, that of getting into the record a commitment, if possible, as to policy, which, of course, may spare the committee the necessity of hearing other objecting witnesses from other departments who feel that their prerogatives and rights may be infringed upon. Now, in the event you want certain information for the Defense Office of Production Management, I take it you will prepare a schedule of questions you want asked and you would submit it to the Bureau of the Census, and the next thing would be that the Bureau of the Census would agree with you, as you are agreeing with this committee, that the Division of Statistical Standards, under the Director of the Budget, would be the one controlling factor to avoid duplication and protect the interest of other departments who feel that they have similar rights vested with the Director of the Budget. Mr. MAY. I don't know what Census feels about that. The CHAIRMAN. Of course, I will ask Mr. Capt, too.

Mr. CAPT. Will you permit me to inject a remark at that point? The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Mr. CAPT. There is no need for additional legislation in respect to that point. The Bureau of Census already has the authority

The CHAIRMAN. It is not legislation; it is a question of policy I am trying to bring out.

Mr. CAPT. I will bring that out. The Bureau of Census has for a long time submitted all of its schedules of every type and character to the Division of Statistical Standards in the Bureau of the Budget before they are sent out, and they are approved by that Bureau before they are sent out. So that is already cleared up.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand that, but there are other agencies afraid of the Office of Defense Management, acting through you, taking some of their functions away. They want to come here and testify. So that if we get a commitment as to policy we can possibly avoid hearing a lot of witnesses.

Mr. MAY. My firm conviction is that that general procedure is sound procedure. I do not know an thing about the basic law on this, to know whether there is that necessity for safeguarding by writing that into legislation here or not, but I do know the principle is one that seems to me to be completely sound and ought to be adhered to.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, then, I have an additional question that you may or may not wish to answer. Do you have any direct connection with priority?

Mr. MAY. Yes, sir; I think I can answer that yes. We have direct connection with all of the operating divisions of O. P. M., and that operating division of O. P. M. is one of the agencies which we service with basic information.

The CHAIRMAN. As an agency of Government, the Office of Production Management has its own priority. Will you tell this committee what that priority is?

Mr. MAY. It is a very involved story, but what in general is done is this; the Priorities Division tries to get the best available information as to supplies of raw material of various kinds, and goes over into certain other things beyond raw materials; it goes over into certain semifabricated shapes of metals and things of that sort, and sometimes it goes up into completed categories, like machine tools. But the focal point is in the raw materials. It tries to get through us as good a picture as possible of the expected supply, that is, domestic production and the possibility of imports and the whole supply picture, whatever it may be.

The CHAIRMAN. Excuse me for interrupting, but I am afraid you probably did not understand my question.

Mr. MAY. I am afraid I did not, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What you are trying to tell the committee is not in answer to it. I mean so far as supplies, material, office furniture, typewriters, and whatever you fellows in the Office of Defense Management use. You have your own priority rating for that, have you not?

Mr. MAY. We put in requisitions to a central housekeeping office, office management group, asking for the equipment and so forth that we need. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that priority rating for O. P. M. A-1-C. Mr. MAY. I have no idea, sir. materials from the outside, does honestly do not know.

You mean if we want to purchase that carry a priority number? I

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; if you want to get a typewriter, for instance. Typewriters contain a certain amount of aluminum, they contain a certain amount of metals that come within the priority rating. If you want to get a typewriter for O. P. M., does it come under A-1-C, or does it not?

Mr. MAY. I don't think it would run quite that way, sir. I do not know the answer to that question, but I think this; I think there are no priorities issued as such on typewriters. There are priorities issued on metals that the typewriter manufacturers would use, but I do not think the O. P. M. typewriters, typewriters ordered for O. P. M. would be differentiated from typewriters that are ordered elsewhere. But I honestly do not know, sir. I would have to try to look that up. The CHAIRMAN. I thought perhaps you could not answer it. I have a reference here showing that the War Department has a rating of A-1-J, the O. P. M. A-1-C, and our own rating for typewriterswell, if any of you fellows want to get a typewriter, you had better do it quick, because they are going to make a rating on typewriters for us that will be away down the list.

I believe that is all the questions I have.

Mr. KINZER. Mr. May, it was stated there was a personnel in the Bureau of the Census of 600 that the O. P. M. was paying?

Mr. MAY. The Census is using them and paying them, but we are reimbursing the Census for this service.

Mr. KINZER. So far what has been your reimbursement, approximately?

Mr. MAY. I think it is somewhere around a half million dollars. I have the figures here broken down by the various projects from July 1 to early September, and the amount that was allocated for those particular jobs that were started since July 1, was $350,000, and that has not all been spent, yet, you understand.

Mr. KRAMER. How much was that?

Mr. MAY. $350,000, for tabulation jobs that were asked of the Census since July 1, last.

Mr. KRAMER. Were you reimbursed?

Mr. MAY. We have allocated defense funds for the reimbursement of the Census, and they draw on those funds as they actually spend the money.

Mr. BISHOP. What funds do you reimburse the Census from?
Mr. MAY. They are part of general defense funds.

Mr. BISHOP. General defense?

Mr. MAY. Yes, sir; I believe so.

Mr. BISHOP. Is that a fund that is open to the O. P. M.?

Mr. MAY. Our procedure is to state our needs to the budget office of O. P. M., and I believe they in turn-I am not certain of thiscertify it to the Budget Office that is general for all defense agencies in O. E. M. I don't know the particular title or category of funds that are then apportioned, but as I understand it it is out of the general defense fund, somewhere out of the general defense funds which are appropriated to the defense agencies.

Mr. KINZER. Are those civil-service employees?

Mr. MAY. In the Bureau of the Census?

Mr. KINZER. Yes.

Mr. KRAMER. Are they nonpartisan?

Mr. KINZER. Yes, I believe entirely nonpartisan.

Mr. KRAMER. What is your direct title in your official capacity. with O. P. M.?

Mr. MAY. I am called chief of the Bureau of Research and Statistics of O. P. M.

Mr. KRAMER. You have no direct authority to give employment to any persons outside of the District, have you, in your own division? Mr. MAY. No. We have no employees that regularly work outside the District. We simply have our own staff.

Mr. KRAMER. In the District?

Mr. MAY. In the District; yes, sir.

Mr. KRAMER. And how do you acquire them? What process do you go through?

Mr. MAY. We recruit through civil service, except for a few top jobs, of a very specialized source, of rather high professional jobs when, having asked Civil Service to send us someone, we can find nobody on the civil-service rolls with the requisite professional background. We then recruit those either by trying to pull them in from business concerns, statisticians, and economists, or from academic sources.

Mr. KRAMER. Suppose you had to have a lawyer, would you go to the Bar Association of New York, Los Angeles, or Chicago?

Mr. MAY. My particular department has no lawyers. We are blessed that way, perhaps. But we have a lot of economists and statisticians. We go to the American Statistical Association; we go to the universities

Mr. KRAMER. And ask them to send you a college man? What are the salaries those men are paid, just off-hand?

Mr. MAY. $8,000 is the highest salary, and they run from about $1,400 to $8,000 a year.

Mr. KRAMER. Who passes on the salaries you pay them?

Mr. MAY. Our general rule is, sir, that nobody is paid more than they have been receiving on the outside, and many of them are paid much less. Specifically, employees taken on are paid in accordance with regular civil service salaries as reflected in the classification of the jobs set up by the Civil Service Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kramer, why would he go to New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles to get a lawyer? You know Harvard is in Massachusetts.

Mr. KRAMER. Of course, I did not exclude that territory, but I just mentioned those places, because those are the places where you can find a lot of them in the bread line. They have gone into the contracting business in my district.

Mr. MAY. I think the answer is, sir, that only a part of the professionals are taken off the civil-service lists, and they all pass through civil service and are certified by civil service as being qualified for the job and accepted. They won't let us have them unless they certify to the fact that they have nobody to furnish.

Mr. KRAMER. Then you have no tie-in at all with the priorities, except in a statistical way?

Mr. MAY. Except for furnishing them information. We have nothing to do with making priority policies.

Mr. KRAMER. Have you given thought to this: We recently, on two occasions, have made a tabulation of the aliens in this country, in the Immigration Department, and the Department of Justice, and the alien was notified over the radio, and through the press, and by act of Congress, and in other ways