132,000,000 persons making up our population. Such a great peak of work in each decennial census period seriously overloads our staff and facilities in space and equipment. Of course the result is that the publication of final census figures is materially delayed and you well know the great importance of timeliness of statistical data. S. 1627 is most important in that it will spread this tremendous load of work. Under its provisions the census of business, manufactures, and mineral industries will not be taken in the years ending with 0 as at present but will be carried on in the years ending with 3 and 8. Such an arrangement will make for a better census all around and materially shorten the time required to obtain and publish figures in all census undertakings. Government officials as well as all classes of businessmen need to know with the very least possible delay about economic and social developments and changes. This bill will go far in getting such much-needed information to them with greater rapidity than is attainable under present laws. There is yet another point of great importance involved in S. 1627. The highest officials of the Government's defense program have urged on the Congress and its leaders that this measure be passed to the end that the Census Bureau be empowered in law to render every possible service in the form of planning statistics to the Nation's defense agencies promptly, efficiently, and at as frequent intervals as may be required by unforeseen and rapidly changing circumstances and conditions of defense needs. The Bureau of the Census is the only statistical agency that now has appropriate specialized equipment and personnel to take care quickly and adequately of current statistical inquiries needed by defense officials on industrial and business developments. Without the use of trained census personnel using procedures already established, such new current inquiries could not be carried on effectively. If the Bureau of the Census is not implemented to undertake these tasks for the defense program, it will be necessary for defense officials to create an additional organization with new equipment and new personnel which would be both expensive and inefficient. Such a set-up would duplicate equipment already in the Census Bureau, prevent the fullest use of the limited number of trained persons available for the work, and cause a harassing multiplication of questionnaires going to businessmen. Moreover, we cannot afford to ignore the undeniable benefits of this improved fact-gathering program in meeting the problems of our post-emergency period. Our experience in the first World War and the subsequent readjustment period lead to such a conclusion. Planning statistics on commercial and industrial activities and products are essential for carrying out a post-World War program of readjustment and rehabilitation and cannot wisely be dispensed with. They must reflect rapid changes. Accordingly it is imperative that the Census Bureau be in a legal position to gather data quickly and as frequently as changes occur. Historical data, valuable enough in themselves, are not a substitute for planning statistics. We need to know promptly what to do about each problem when it is upon us, not what we might have done if we only could have been well informed soon enough. In judging this bill full consideration should be given to the interests of users, respondents and taxpayers alike. That, we have honestly done and after much earnest thought we are convinced that the advantages which will accrue to businessmen generally and to their Government as well by passage of S. 1627 will far outweigh any possible disadvantage that could arise. This bill will provide a maximum of useful information as often as may be required from time to time, at a minimum of cost and delay. Should you or any of your associates be in Washington within the next few days, I am certain that census officials will be glad to discuss with you at length the advantages of the bill and to answer any further questions which you may have in mind. Sincerely yours, WAYNE C. TAYLOR, Under Secretary of Commerce. Mr. TAYLOR. There is one letter in particular that came in yesterday, which Mr. Capt has, which I gave to him, and which was in reply to mine. I do not say that this man speaks for all of them. The CHAIRMAN. We will have Mr. Capt present that letter for the record. Mr. TAYLOR. It is addressed to me. I was not sure who you were going to address the question to, so I gave that letter to him. He says in substance that after receipt of the letter I had written to him, and further study of the bill, he had changed his opinion and had no further objection to the passage of the measure. I would like to introduce that letter written to me, because it goes into a little more detail. The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, that will be included. Mr. KRAMER. Mr. Taylor, if this bill should pass, how much of an appropriation are you going to ask for in order to carry it into effect? Mr. TAYLOR, So far as the current year, which will be the year in which most of the important work will be done, we will not ask for any supplemental appropriation, so far as I know. For succeeding years, experience alone will be able to show that. Mr. KRAMER. Have you any idea at all, any basic amount you think it will require? Mr. TAYLOR. Again we could give you the same answer that we gave you about the decennial census and so on, that the total certainly should not be increased and certainly should be lowered. Mr. KRAMER. You say you are borrowing now from the O. P. M. in order to carry on certain work. To what extent do you have to borrow from them, or ask them to advance you and then you have to reimburse them? Mr. TAYLOR. We have no method of reimbursement. Mr. KRAMER. What do you get from the O. P. M. now in the way of funds to carry on the work you have been doing? Mr. TAYLOR. That carries out a long-standing practice of the Census Bureau in its relationship, not only with private industry but for any special jobs which are necessary. If we can do it without the use of additional funds, we always do it, and particularly in this period where we have been stretching over, we have worked people overtime and so on in order to fulfill some of those requests. Mr. KRAMER. But you made a statement a while ago that you were obliged to borrow funds from the O. P. M. Mr. TAYLOR. We do indeed. Mr. KRAMER. All right. To what extent are you doing that? Mr. TAYLOR. Have you got the latest total on that? Mr. CAPT. I think somewhere around a half million dollars. Mr. KRAMER. Over what period of time? Mr. CAPT. Starting last July, a year ago. Mr. KRAMER. And what was that money expended for? Mr. CAPT. We sent out questionnaires for certain information O. P. M. requested us to collect for them. For example, on scarce metals, which we are collecting now. Mr. KRAMER. Is that for clerical help compiling, and so on? Mr. CAPT. Preparing schedules, getting them out, receiving them, editing them and so forth. Mr. KRAMER. Have you had to have any additional help in order to carry on that work? Mr. CAPT. Oh, yes; we have several hundred employees. Mr. KRAMER. From where do you take them? Mr. CAPT. Civil service. Mr. KRAMER. You get them all from civil service? Mr. CAPT. Every one. Mr. KRAMER. How do you let them go when you no longer need them? Mr. CAPT. They are all on a temporary basis, under the decennialcensus law. Mr. KRAMER. How do you work out the permanent people down there? Are you going to keep them on whether you have need for them or not? Mr. CAPT. We have to keep them on under civil service. Mr. KRAMER. Don't you find there are a great many down there you have no need for? Mr. CAPT. Oh, no. Mr. KRAMER. Don't some of them fall over each other trying to get around? Mr. CAPT. Well, just because people are up in years does not mean they are helpless and cannot render service. Mr. KRAMER. You really get efficiency out of all the employees you have? Mr. CAPT. I think all our people are rendering satisfactory service, and when they get to the point that they do not render satisfactory service, the machinery of Government has been set up under civil service by which they may be removed under proper charge and trial. Mr. KRAMER. You haven't removed any, have you? Mr. CAPT. Oh, yes; we are removing them from time to time, for cause. Mr. KRAMER. What authority do you ask for getting help from the O. P. M.? How was that brought about? Did Congress have that right? Mr. CAPT. O. P. M. has asked us to get information for them. Mr. CAPT. Because we cannot compel giving of this information under the present law. The Secretary has the authority under the organic act for periodic checks, but you cannot force replies. Mr. KRAMER. In other words, the replies were not satisfactory to the O. P. M.? Mr. CAPT. No. They may or may not be. We haven't got them all in. We cannot compel a reply to a questionnaire. This measure provides penalties, so that we can compel answers. Mr. KRAMER. In other words, this is a forcing measure? Mr. CAFT. Like any other measure. Mr. GRANT. Mr. Taylor, I want to come back to section 3. All of us, I know, are anxious to do everything we can to expedite this defense program. At the same time there are some fundamental rights of the people at stake. This proposed legislation was initiated, I understood you to say, by the Army, the Navy, and the O. P. M. authorities. Mr. TAYLOR. And the Department of Commerce, trying to meet that situation. Mr. GRANT. To make it available to them. Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. Mr. GRANT. If that be true, after this emergency is past and O. P. M. goes out of existence, then will not the need for section 3 have passed? Mr. TAYLOR. I think very likely. Mr. GRANT. It just comes to me, and I do not make it as a recommendation, but I would like to have your comment on a limiting amendment to section 3, that would limit it to the duration of the present emergency, or perhaps even better, have some definite expiration date. Mr. TAYLOR. Can you see that that would bother us at all, Mr. Capt? Mr. CAPT. Mr. Taylor, I see no objection to fixing an additional limitation. When this was discussed in the beginning it was agreed by everyone that there was sufficient safeguard thrown around this confidential clause by leaving it to the discretion of the Secretary of Commerce with the approval of the President. We knew somebody had to be trusted, and we believed the people were willing to trust those two officials of the Government. If Congress wants to limit it otherwise, so that it is limited to the period of the emergency, as determined by the Executive, I see no objection to it. Mr. TAYLOR. That is exactly the answer I would have given, but I wanted to check with Mr. Capt, because he is working more directly with these things. Mr. GRANT. I would like to ask Mr. Capt one question on that point. In your consultation with the departments interested in this legislation, did they at any time give you any intimation that there might be need for this after the emergency shall have passed? Mr. CAPT. No; that point was not raised. This point was raised; who could be trusted with the greatest safety, and we decided the Secretary of Commerce and the President could be trusted with the greatest safety to all concerned. Mr. GRANT. I appreciate that. But now with respect to the length of time that this door should be open, is there any need for it after the emergency is over? Mr. CAPT. Well, if the emergency should be over, I wouldn't want to give the information to anyone. Bear in mind that the Bureau of the Census and the Department of Commerce are very eager to retain the confidential character of the information. We are leaning over backward to protect it and under no circumstances will we agree to give this information to anyone except in the interest of national defense. Dr. REED. Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Capt and I are in complete agreement on this, that we would be quite pleased not to have the responsibility on our hands after the emergency is over, because we feel that this is as much as we should do that everything possible should be done to protect the secrecy of the information. Mr. GRANT. I believe the freedom with which our people give vital information to the census taker is due to the fact that they have confidence in the Census. I think if they knew this would be ended after the emergency is over, it would make for greater confidence on the part of the people in supplying the information you want. Mr. CAPT. As long as we are not hampered in serving the defense program I see no objection to a limitation. Mr. TALLE. Mr. Taylor, it would help me to clarify this matter in my own mind, if you would point out by specific illustrations how this bill is going to assist the small manufacturing concern. I can under stand the value of a historical picture to a graduate student, perhaps, who wants to write a thesis, and so on, but these people are interested in continuing as going concerns. In what way would this information help small business enterprises to continue as going concerns? Mr. TAYLOR. I think I can best explain that by describing the interrelationship of the Bureau of the Census with the Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce. We look on the census as the primary source of, let us say, raw statistics. Whether they fit the individual industry, or whether they fit the national economy, those statistics are taken by the Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce and are incorporated in current live reports, which do help the individual businessman. Recently we have engaged on an extended program of current monthly reports on particular industries and particular commodities and we expect to expand them in the course of the year to about 60. We are running considerably less than that now, because we do not like to put something out to the public we are not pretty satisfied with. We are already getting this confidential information out to the various governmental agencies who are actively working on the defense program, but as the program of the census along these lines becomes more and more valuable to the industrial specialist, we will get information out to the small businessman which would be of immediate benefit to him. I have to emphasize the combination of the work of the two bureaus. The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, we are without authority to continue during sessions of the House, and if there are no further questions of Mr. Taylor, we will start tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. Mr. TALLE. In connection with the monthly reports you refer to, do you send out data in the form of figures merely, or do1you interpret them? Mr. TAYLOR. We interpret them. The CHAIRMAN. You will see to it that the letters you mentioned are incorporated in the record? Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, we will meet tomorrow morning, at 10 o'clock. (Whereupon, at 11:50 a. m., the committee adjourned to 10 a. m., Wednesday, October 15, 1941.) |