cation of work. Furthermore, we need these data in carrying out our regular work. You would not need to set up a duplicate organization over in the Department of the Census if the most is to be gotten out of the statistics.

Mr. ALLEN. Let me ask you this. I am asking purely for information and with an open mind on it.

Dr. SAYERS. Oh, yes.

Mr. ALLEN. Which organization is better prepared to get that information, yours or the Bureau of the Census?

Dr. SAYERS. We personally believe our organization is better prepared to get it because we have been doing it for years. We have a group of trained technical persons. We have people not only collecting statistical information, but many others from the mining industries, people who were drawn from the mining industry into the Bureau of Mines, who know its problems and know what type of data we should collect, and the information that is most useful to industry and people as a whole. And that is also indicated by the fact that in the eleventh, fourteenth, fifteenth, and sixteenth decennial census personnel was drawn from the Bureau of Mines to carry on this work which would indicate our personnel is especially equipped to do that work.

Mr. ALLEN. Well now, have you been making the information you have available to the O. P. M., and O. P. A. C. S.; or are you authorized to do this?

Dr. SAYERS. From the very beginning we have made it available. At all times we have made it available to all our defense bureaus. I submitted yesterday exhibits showing the reaction of the various organizations. The O. P. M. is in constant touch with us. We have liaison personnel over there with them. They started their work on by actually housing their men within the Bureau of Mines. They objected to leaving the Bureau of Mines because the material is so much more readily available and in much better form than any other place that it could be obtained. They have so stated to me personally. Mr. ALLEN. Are the data that you get protected by secrecy under the law? That is, the information that the Census Bureau gets?

Dr. SAYERS. Yes. We protect it. The industry is protected just the same as any of the rest. We would not obtain this information if we abused the confidence under which we obtain it.

Mr. ALLEN. My point is this, Doctor, since the Bureau, as I understand it, is not permitted to give out this information under the law now, they are seeking in this bill to give it out. Now, if you have the same secrecy in your law, how can you give it out?

Dr. SAYERS. We give it out, not on a particular plant but on a group of plants, by districts and by States and by industries. We believe this to be the most satisfactory to all concerned.

We have been able to meet the needs so far. We have been able within the limits of the funds available to meet the needs of all the defense bureaus. I submitted yesterday an exhibit to this committee which indicates that to be true with the O. P. M., O. P. A. C. S., O. P. A., the Priorities group, the Army and Navy, and the Munitions Board, and the various groups.

Mr. ALLEN. Understand, I think the defense agencies are entitled to the fullest information, not only from your organization but from the Census Bureau and any other organization because we must place the defense of the country first.

Dr. SAYERS. Absolutely correct.

Mr. ALLEN. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions?

If not, then Dr. Sayers, you may retire.

Is there someone else here from the Department of the Interior who wanted to testify?

Mr. DEMPSEY. We have nothing further to offer, unless we return because of Mr. Kramer's desire to ask some questions.

The CHAIRMAN. If Mr. Kramer wants to ask some questions we will have to have him make a request when he returns.

Mr. DEMPSEY. Yes, sir. We will be glad to appear then.

The CHAIRMAN. I just wanted to know in the meantime if you had any other persons who wanted to be heard.

Mr. TALLE. Referring to the original act, setting up the Bureau. of Mines, what does that state about the purpose of the Bureau?

Dr. SAYERS. The purpose is to make studies in the mining and mineral industries. I cannot quote the exact law. That is with a view to increase the efficiency of the service in the production of minerals and to promote the safety and health of the employees in that industry. All these data we are collecting looks toward that. We could not quite properly and efficiently conduct our safety and health programs without the data that we collect on accidents, health, and employment. The same thing applies to our studies in the technological branch. Without these data we could not do the work efficiently. We could not determine whether a study ought to be made or not and which one has priority over another and do it efficiently. Twenty-odd years ago I began using statistics just on that basis in the Bureau of Mines.

Mr. TALLE. Your statistics, of course, are gathered on technical basis to serve the purpose for which the Bureau was organized.

Mr. HARRIS. Doctor, if this law were to be enacted as written in this proposed bill would your department want to carry out the required work that you have to do? Would your department also continue to obtain this data as you are doing now?

Dr. SAYERS. If we expect to continue efficiently in the guiding of the other work-yes.

Mr. HARRIS. In other words then, it would require the Bureau of the Census to set up a similar staff within that Department?

Dr. SAYERS. It would seem to me that that would be true. Mr. HARRIS. And you would probably have to carry on the same staff in your Department?

Dr. SAYERS. It would seem to me that that would be true. I do not see how we could do otherwise and do our work with the efficiency with which we are now doing it.

Mr. HARRIS. Your position is that to carry on the other duties that you are required to perform it is necessary for your Department to have available this information?

Dr. SAYERS. That is correct. If we are going to do it. You can go out and do it in a haphazard fashion. But to do it in a very orderly way, as I think we are doing it, we have to have this type of data and have it promptly.

Mr. HARRIS. If the amendments as suggested by Mr. Dempsey yesterday were adopted and put in this bill would it give you the authority and would you as a matter of fact continue to cooperate with the Bureau of the Census in doing all of this census work?

Dr. SAYERS. Yes. Certainly. It would give us authority. And I think personally the fact is that we ought to be directed, that is, the Bureau of Mines ought to be directed to do this work. I speak that, if I may, just as a citizen. I think that is true.

Mr. HARRIS. Do you feel like a provision directing you to do it in cooperation with the Bureau of the Census would be satisfactory?

Dr. SAYERS. That would be perfectly satisfactory to me, sir. It would seem to me we are going to cooperate as we have in the past. My attitude toward this is that we should. In the recent inspection law that was passed a section was in there that the data collected under it should be presented to the Census Bureau. We expect, and I told them we would like to discuss the matter with them as to the type of data they would like us to obtain, if any, in addition to that which we anticipate obtaining.

Mr. HARRIS. That is all.

Mr. ALLEN. Now, just one other question, Doctor, please, sir. Do I understand then that you folks in the Department of the Interior want to collect the information yourself and you are willing to do it under the supervision or something of the Census Bureau?

Dr. SAYERS. We are willing to cooperate. You cannot have two supervisors and have efficiency. I do not see how you can do it. We are willing to work with them. I do not think there will be any difficulty on it. We can obtain the information they want. We are willing to work out any plan that seems practicable. After all, we have little enough money anyway to do the work, really. Mr. ALLEN. You mean you want your own employeesDr. SAYERS (interposing). To do the work.

Mr. ALLEN (continuing). Who are regularly employed by your Bureau to do this work?

Dr. SAYERS. That is correct.

Mr. ALLEN. Then the only question, as I understand it, between your Department and the Census Bureau is that you both concede the work is necessary and essential.

Dr. SAYERS. That is right.

Mr. ALLEN. And that the O. P. M. and other defense agencies ought to have the information?

Dr. SAYERS. Correct.

Mr. ALLEN. But you want to collect the data on mines and this bill authorizes the Census Bureau to collect it?

Dr. SAYERS. We think it would be best for all concerned if we continued to collect statistics which we have been collecting for a period of years, for more than a half a century. And it would seem to me that it would be the desirable thing for us all to do. And it seems best for the country for us to do that.

Mr. ALLEN. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if we could just take a minute and ask Mr. Dempsey about the amendments that he suggested yesterday?

Mr. DEMPSEY. They are right here.

Dr. SAYERS. There is a copy of one right there.

The CHAIRMAN. The reporter yesterday took the copy along with him. I do not have any. You handed them over to the reporter and I never even saw it.

Dr. SAYERS. By the way, my statement will go in?

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, yes.

Dr. SAYERS. Here is another copy. It will go in so that you will be sure to have the whole picture.

Mr. ALLEN. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Dr. Sayers. We thank you.

STATEMENT OF R. G. E. ULLMAN, ULLMAN CORPORATION OF PHILADELPHIA

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ullman, you may proceed on the matter which is the subject of the hearing.

Mr. KINZER. Will he please give us his name and residence, and whom re represents.

The CHAIRMAN. He is from Philadelphia. He is from the Ullman Corporation. His name is R. G. E. Ullman.

Mr. ULLMAN. We are entirely a marketing firm and have long used census information as a basis for organization of sales effort and particularly for building up the economical and efficient use of time and effort in selling work. Many manufacturers are not equipped for that and find this work properly done could cut their distribution costs, which is naturally of advantage to the public. As a member of the National Industrial Advertisers Association, we are interested in this and particularly and probably because we make a wider use of census information in marketing work than most firms, except professional firms like ourselves can do. The thing we are most interested in is in the continuance of the 2-year interval of the census of manufacturers. Because industry is shifting so rapidly that unless you know where it is you cannot do an efficient job of distribution and it is useful not only in a period like this when we are concentrating every effort on defense work, but also will be extremely useful in the aftermath when business has to turn to a highly competitive basis, and when industries will have to move. There have been tremendous shifts in manufacturing plants all over the country and these will have very serious effects later on.

However, our feeling with respect to the moving up of the interval from 10 to 5 years in the other fields, is one of entire approval. One thing that we are interested in is in not having the 2-year interval destroyed on manufacturing because here you will find the greatest shift of all.

The point has been raised that you have only 186,000 manufacturing establishments, many of which are small manufacturers. I picked out of the census figures, and these are to the nearest thousands, we have not attempted more than that. There are 78,000 of these who employ 5 or less people, as contrasted with 250 who employ more than 2,500. Numerically, your great group is in those who employ 100 or less. And it is vital to protect them because they have as a rule a smaller sales force and less opportunity to cover a wide area with their men. These 186,000 manufacturing enterprises, however, employ approximately 15,000,000 men and women at the present time, whereas the 3,000,000 business enterprises which are mostly wholesale, retail, and service establishments, employ about 6,500,000 exclusive of the proprietors. We feel that the benefit to the greatest number comes also from the supplying of information, of current and adequate information to that group of 186,000 manufacturing enterprises.

Also, they will present the largest increment, the single increment of wage paid in the country. It is well over $15,000,000,000. And

And

it probably is considerably in excess of that sum today. The uses to which this further information can be put are important because unless you know the geological location of plants, as shown in the current country break-downs of the census of manufacturers, you cannot employ your sampling technique, which by the way is not new because we have been using it ourselves for more than 25 years. those sampling techniques are useful in the sampling that is proposed. We think they will be unquestionably of value to show trends and permit the establishment of selling as yardsticks. Probably that would not be in the province of the Bureau of the Census. They would also show the shifts in marketing potentials, which is definitely a natural part of their work.

But none of this can be effective unless the number and location of manufacturing establishments are known. If they are known, salesmen can be routed so that there is an effective distribution of time and effort, so that they will not be made to run thousands of miles unnecessarily. We have had an illustration of that in the work of that kind done for the American Radiator Co., where on a rerouting of 105 salesmen they have saved 1,500,000 miles of automobile travel a year, and their sales head made the statement that this was equivalent to 1 day a week of additional selling time. Now, that sort of routing means if it can be applied more generally, means that it will save hundreds of thousands of gallons of gasoline a year, which at the present time is an important item, particularly in the East, where, after all, business is concentrated. The many industries do not follow the general pattern of industry. Probably 300 counties of the 3,073 in the country represent the bulk of industry. But if you were going into, for instance mining, that might not be so. you were going into the flour milling, it certainly is not so. The bulk of flour milling is done in other than those 300 counties. And in machinery, the manufacturer who serves that industry needs to know where the plants are located.

If

Mr. TALLE. Is it not true that the cement industry is still more highly centralized as to location? And every industry has its special characteristics?

Mr. ULLMAN. Yes; every industry is a different story. In a case like the cement industry, there are about only 150 plants and they are likewise located. And the data on those areas are readily available to the cement manufacturers association. So the routing of salesmen on this is very simple.

As to trade and small business, and I separate small business from small manufacturing, they are two different things in our interpretation. Small business is retail stores, and the small bakery who sells in his own shop what he makes in the bakery. Those depend to a great degree on manufacturing industry for their volume of business, for their distribution and equipment. And the more we look into this the more we find they tie back to your 186,000 who are after all somewhat of a key group, which is pretty well illustrated by their preponderance of employment and wages paid.

One other interesting use that is made of county break-down statistics of industry is in the appraisal of industrial magazine circulation. The National Industrial Advertisers Association push the use of the county break-down circulation because mass circulation statistics were of relative value only unless you knew where they went. They had to go into a plant to be effective. And that is one of the