In addition to its annual reports, the Bureau of Mines compiles current data on specific minerals on a weekly, monthly, or quarterly basis, according to the needs in each case. In the past 2 years it has greatly expanded these services and has prepared many confidential reports at frequent intervals for the defense agencies. These agencies recognize the Bureau of Mines as the logical and best source of information concerning the many critical problems of metal and mineral production with which they have to deal.

They have also called some of the experts and technicians of the Bureau of Mines directly into defense service, and there is very close cooperation with the Bureau of Mines, as the organization in the Government which handles the mineral field.

If, in the judgment of your committee, legislation such as S. 1627 is needed, we wish to urge as strongly as we can, that it be so amended as to continue and consolidate the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Mines and for bituminous coal, the Bituminous Coal Division— over all statistics of the mineral industry. That, I understand, the amendment submitted to you will accomplish.

We cannot help viewing with alarm the provisions of this bill, which would permit large-scale duplication of the present work of the Bureau of Mines, resulting in waste and increased cost to taxpayers and adding to the almost overwhelming burden of questionnaires from various agencies of our Government which the industry is already carrying.

I speak advisedly when I say that the mineral industries are now under a heavy burden. The products of our mines are the basic materials of our whole defense program, and the metal and mineral producers of this country are now keyed up to the highest pitch in an "all out" effort to bring forth the maximum tonnages of the iron ore, lead, copper, zinc, coal, and other metals, minerals, and fuels which we so badly need, including the strategic metals to which Representative John R. Murdock of Arizona just referred.

We urge that you do not add to their burdens by provisions in this law which would make possible the distraction of these mining company organizations from their main task and their harassment by a further flood of unnecessary questionnaires from still another Government agency.

As you know, most of the shortages which are the occasion for priorities today are in the metals produced from our mines, and we have a real job on our hands in trying to get out just as much of these metals and minerals as we can, and we do not want to be burdened with any more costly, time-consuming reports to the Government than are absolutely necessary.

May we also point out that statistical work in a complex technical industry, such as mining, is a highly specialized task. The trained men of the Bureau of Mines, both in Washington and in the field. offices, are in a far better position to carry on this work than anyone else in the Federal Government. To a large degree they have been drawn from the mining industry itself. They understand its problems and processes. They have close contact, both with the operating men of the industry and with the technologists of the Bureau of Mines, who are available at all times for consultation. This makes possible both the intelligent planning of questionnaires and methods of collecting data, and sound interpretation of the results. Your statistics are not going to be any good unless they are gathered and

63971-41-10

interpreted by men who know the problems of the industry, who know what the figures mean, who can recognize when there is something out of line, and can see to it that the figures are correct and properly interpreted.

A feeling of confidence and cooperation has grown up between mineral producers and the Bureau of Mines, which makes for greater accuracy and reliability of the Bureau of Mines statistics than would be possible under any other agency of the Government.

We understand that at previous hearings on this legislation, Department of Commerce officials have stated that there was no intention of encroaching upon or duplicating the statistical work of the Bureau of Mines. We are glad to hear this, and we submit that the proponents of the legislation should therefore have no objection to, but rather should welcome, specific amendments to the bill which will insure the carrying out of this intention.

We have a high respect for the present Secretary of Commerce and the many able men who serve under him, but we cannot expect that they will permanently continue in these positions. We all know the tendency of Government bureaus to enlarge their scope and to assume new functions and powers. If the power to do certain things is granted, it is too much to expect of human nature that it will not sooner or later be exercised. As a safeguard against changes in personnel or policy, and as a matter of sound legislative procedure, we urge that definite and specific amendments be adopted which will require, by statute, that the collection, compilation, collation and publication of all statistics of the mineral industries shall be conducted by the U. S. Bureau of Mines or for bituminous coal, by the Bituminous Coal Division.

Such an amendment will remove the possibilities of wasteful duplication, will insure better results at lower cost, and will minimize disturbance to producers of the minerals and metals which are so urgently needed at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions of Mr. Conover.

Mr. KINZER. Mr. Conover, from your statement, you raise the question, if in the judgment of the committee, legislation such as S. 1627 is needed

Mr. CONOVER. Yes, sir.

Mr. KINZER. Will you please comment on that?

Mr. CONOVER. Yes, sir. I will be glad to. So far as the mineral industries are concerned, we feel that the statistics which are being gathered serve the purpose very well. These annual reports, as I say, can be combined over a 2-year period, or a 5-year period, or any other period desired, and not necessarily an arbitrary one; say, from 1930 to 1935, or 1935 to 1940, or whatever it may be. We are considering the matter with respect to our own field. If, as a general proposition, for all industry, it is necessary to have additional statistical information, we are not objecting to such legislation. That is a matter for your committee, and in that event we feel that complete mineral statistics should be made available, but they should be compiled by the agency which knows the job.

Mr. KINZER. You are not interested in this legislation in any way, or the general provisions of it, at all. You do not express any opinion as to that. But if such legislation is enacted, you want your industry exempted.

Mr. CONOVER. We have not asked that it be exempted; we do want the figures for the mining industry compiled in the best possible and most useful manner, by the agency best qualified to do so.

Mr. MURDOCK. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the witness a question? The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, Mr. Murdock.

Mr. MURDOCK. Just what do you mean, Mr. Conover, by saying that the statistics and information ought to be gathered by technical or expert men? Can you elaborate on that just a little to show why you think that is necessary?

Mr. CONOVER. As was brought out this morning by Mr. Dempsey, and also by Mr. Taggart in his responses, mining is a particularly complex industry; it has many problems which are in no way similar to ordinary manufacturing industries. To make intelligent statistics, to get figures which will be most useful to the industry and to the public, and to see that those figures are accurately and reliably put together, requires men who have a real understanding of the mining industry's problems.

Mr. MURDOCK. And they must know mining more than arithmetic, then?

Mr. CONOVER. Definitely, yes; and in the Bureau of Mines not only do we have economists and statisticians with a mining background, but as to any specialized problems which are still too deep for them, they can readily consult the technologists in the Bureau, who can guide them, and thus make sure the figures are of maximum value.

Mr. MURDOCK. Mr. Chairman, I heartily agree with that. When I got a statement by wire from a mining man that in my State the production could be increased 100,000,000 pounds, I thought that was exaggerated; but I have just put it down here and divided it by 2,000 and I find that is 50,000 tons. Well, that is arithmetic. And here is a case that illustrates probably what we are talking about. Last week I got a certain area opened up to mining. The area was 425 square miles, which will make it possible for mineral development to take place on it. I was commenting to one of the press representatives, and I told him my story, and he sent that over the wires as 425,000 square miles, which would be about four times the entire area of the State of Arizona. Of course, that makes me look ridiculous, because of that

error.

Even the most intelligent press representatives have been a little confused on their arithmetic. Well, my colleagues sometimes confuse millions and billions.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions of Mr. Conover? Mr. TALLE. 1 understand you are in agreement with the proposed change relating to the periodic collection of statistics.

Mr. CONOVER. What we are advocating is the continuation of the present functions of the Bureau of Mines and the consolidation in the Bureau of Mines of the figures desired for the census, whether it be a 10-year, 5-year or other census period, according to these amendments which have been suggested. These, we understand, would amend the bill to provide that the Secretary of the Interior, through the Bureau of Mines, and the Bituminous Coal Division, be authorized to collect the needed statistics with reference to the mineral industries. Mr. TALLE. In other words, you are well satisfied with the present set-up?

Mr. CONOVER. We are eminently satisfied with the present set-up. We think we are well served. We think the Bureau of Mines is doing a splendid job, and that the mineral statistics it compiles are the finest compiled anywhere in the world.

Mr. Chairman, may I introduce a letter from the National Sand & Gravel Association, which bears out in very well phrased terms some of the things I have been saying? This is on behalf of the sand and gravel and industrial sand industry.

The CHAIRMAN. I might say for the information of the committee. it is addressed to myself as chairman, and signed by V. P. Ahearn. Without objection it will be included in the record.

(The letter referred to is as follows:)

Re. S. 1627.

Hon. GUY L. MOSER,

NATIONAL SAND AND GRAVEL ASSOCIATION,
Washington, D. C., October 21, 1941.

Chairman, House Committee on the Census,

House of Representatives, Washington, D. C.

MY DEAR CHAIRMAN MOSER: Due to the fact that I must be out of Washington while your committee is conducting hearings on S. 1627, I have asked Mr. Julian D. Conover of the American Mining Congress, during the course of his testimony on S. 1627, to present this letter to the committee with a request that, if possible, it be incorporated in the printed record of the hearings.

For more than 40 years the United States Bureau of Mines has conducted an annual statistical survey of the sand and gravel and industrial sand industries. That survey has been conducted with great intelligence and with a scrupulous respect for accuracy and for presenting a picture of the development of the two industries from year to year. Every member of the sand and gravel and industrial sand industries regards the United States Bureau of Mines, under these circumstances, as an authoritative source of information; in fact, its reputation is so thoroughly established along this line that no other agency, public or private, makes a statistical study each year of the two industries.

The sand and gravel and industrial sand industries repose unlimited confidence in the integrity of the United States Bureau of Mines. We have learned after many years of experience that our individual returns will be used strictly in conformity with the pledges of the Bureau.

In view of what I have said above, it is the earnest hope of the sand and gravel and industrial sand industries that no action will be taken by your committee or by the Congress which will affect in any way whatsoever the present position of the United States Bureau of Mines in the mineral industries. We hope that S. 1627 will be suitably amended in order that the present jurisdiction of the Bureau of Mines will continue unimpaired.

Respectfully yours,

V. P. AHEARN, Executive Secretary.

Mr. CONOVER. We have two further witnesses, one from the anthracite industry and one from the bituminous coal industry, at your convenience.

STATEMENT OF FRANK C. WRIGHT, JR., REPRESENTING THE ANTHRACITE INDUSTRY OF PENNSYLVANIA

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed with your statement, Mr. Wright.

Mr. WRIGHT. I have a very short story. I want to go along with the testimony of Mr. Conover.

I attended the hearings the other day, and I heard quite a discussion about the possibility that the information under this bill might be mandatory as to the answers which would come from industrial concerns. And I understood, Mr. Chairman, you were against the mandatory feature in the bill and that it was, for the time being, out.

There was some discussion as to the collection of statistics by the W. P. A. regarding housing here in Washington, and the question of funds was raised. They said they would be willing to collect that information if they had the funds.

I would like to put into the record the thought that if the mandatory feature of this bill goes into the final act, there also be an appropriation whereby the companies that are forced to make the answers in the exact terms of the questionnaire may meet the expense involved. Should those companies have to take on additional help, they ought to have some provision for paying that help.

I know in my industry, which is a very much depressed industry, and has been over the period of the last 10 years, only a few of the companies have any statistical departments at all, and they are largely undermanned, even as to accounting help. If these companies which are now forced to report, local, municipal, county, Federal, and State taxes, plus their ordinary semimonthly, monthly, quarterly, and annual statements-if, in addition to that accounting work, they are to be called on under a mandatory statute to render a certain number of answers to questions on a questionnaire from the Federal Government I think they are going to have to take on additional help. Some provision should be made to take care of some of the financial load, at least, because it would require several additional clerks, and a lot of those companies are pretty hard up.

Outside of that, all I wanted to say is I heartily agree with the testimony of Mr. Conover. I haven't any exception to that.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wright, I am afraid you probably misunderstood. I do not think I entered into the discussion or indicated any attitude on my part as to any mandatory provisions of the bill, or any penalties. Those discussions were raised by other members of the committee. I did not make any comment about it myself. However, I was born and reared on the edge of the anthracite industry, and I know something of your problems from what the neighbors tell

us.

You probably did hear me make some comment here about the industry that was obliged to call on their accountants, Ford, Bacon & Davis, and at considerable expense they ascertained that they were getting up the same information that the company had furnished the Securities and Exchange Commission a few years before, although in a different form. It cost them $800 to do that.

Mr. WRIGHT. That is just a case in point which I speak of. We are now furnishing to all the defense agencies, voluntarily, all the figures that they have requested from us, and I think they will testify, if they are represented here, that as far as the anthracite industry is concerned, they are very fully and very promptly supplied.

The CHAIRMAN. In your experience in the anthracite industry, would it be a burden on you and the people you represent if you were required to answer additional questionnaires originating with the Bureau of the Census over and above what you are already furnishing the Bureau of Mines?

Mr. WRIGHT. I think so; yes; I know that is true of a lot of the companies. Some of the bigger ones may have statistical departments, with spare time, but I do not know of any.

Mr. KINZER. Mr. Wright, would the result of this enactment be of any assistance or benefit to your industry, or would it be hurtful? Mr. WRIGHT. I cannot tell that until I see one of these questionnaires.