(Witnesses: Pinchot, Zappone.) way and privileges granted by the Secretary of Agriculture may be revocable at will or be granted for a fixed period, as he may provide by the rules and regulations authorized by the act of June 4, 1897 (30 Stat. L., 34-36), and the forest-reserve transfer act of February 1, 1905 (33 Stat. L., 628). A period of years is fixed when the business necessities of the case make it advisable. The CHAIRMAN. Yes; very well. How many men are now employed in each branch of the Forest Service? Will you be kind enough to state in detail and give a full list and the compensation paid to each man by classes? I will ask you whether the classified and analyzed list of expenditures submitted by the Department to us does not cover that ground? Mr. PINCHOT. It covers that ground entirely. The CHAIRMAN. Then, will you insert in your answer to that question an extract from it? Mr. PINCHOT. I refer you to information collected by your committee from the Department, which precisely answers this question. The CHAIRMAN. Then, as I understand, the report of expenditures prepared under our direction gives complete details under this question? Mr. PINCHOT. That is my understanding. Mr. ZAPPONE. That is all there. The CHAIRMAN. Can you state in detail the amounts paid out of the special fund and for what purpose they were paid? Mr. PINCHOT. That is shown by our accounts, and to answer that question would be simply to reproduce a set of our accounts. The CHAIRMAN. Is there any distinction between the special fund and the fund annually appropriated by Congress for that? Mr. PINCHOT. There is. The CHAIRMAN. In disbursement? Mr. PINCHOT. In disbursement. There is a difference in the wording of the appropriation for the two. The CHAIRMAN. Yes; but is there any difference in the manner in which they are used in the Forest Service? Mr. PINCHOT. They are kept separate, and we know at all times the balance in each fund. The CHAIRMAN. Is there any difference in the character of the expenditures under each? Mr. PINCHOT. The expenditures are made under precisely the same regulations and are analogous entirely. They are made for the same purpose, but there is a difference in the wording, so that certain items of expenditure can not be paid out of the forest-reserve fund. You understand that to be the case, Mr. Zappone? Mr. ZAPPONE. In a general way, yes. Mr. PINCHOT. That is shown in the report made to your committee. The CHAIRMAN. What is the character of the items paid out of the special fund as distinguished from those of the general appropriation? Mr. PINCHOT. Under section 5 of the act of February 1, 1905, the special fund can be used only for the administration, etc., of the forest reserves, while the general appropriation is available for that purpose and also for carrying on forest investigations not directly involving the administration of the reserves. (Witnesses: Pinchot, Zappone.) The CHAIRMAN. Are those amounts paid out of the special fund that are not common to the general appropriation stated in the report of expenditures made to us by the Department of Agriculture, so that they can be referred to and identified? Mr. PINCHOT. They are. Are they not, Mr. Zappone? Mr. ZAPPONE. They are, sir. The CHAIRMAN (to Mr. Pinchot). Will you be kind enough to point out in detail exactly where they may be found in the report of expenditures made to us? Mr. PINCHOT. Yes. They are to be found on pages 741 to 810. The CHAIRMAN. That will prevent duplication of the testimony. (Reading from paper:) State fully the permits issued for grazing on forest reserves, giving the name and extent of each permit. Mr. PINCHOт. Do I understand, Mr. Chairman, that you want a list of the 16,000 permits issued, with the number of stock for which each was issued? The CHAIRMAN. I am inclined to think that is the scope of Senator Heyburn's question; but I could not very well include that in the report of our hearings. Mr. PINCHOT. It would take a good while to make it up, too. Would it not be sufficient if I gave you a statement of the number of permits and the number of head of stock in each State? The CHAIRMAN. If you will do that, giving the number of head of cattle or stock in each State, I will have that submitted to Senator Heyburn, and then, if in addition to that he wishes you to prepare a detailed list of all the permits, I will call your attention to that and ask you to have it done. Mr. PINCHOT. I can give you that information at once. Grazing permits for the season of 1906. (Witness: Pinchot.) Increases in the number of stock allowed to graze on the forest reserves since the transfer from the Department of the Interior to the Department of Agriculture. (Witness: Pinchot.) The CHAIRMAN. How long would it take your clerks to prepare the list of the permits, giving the names of the permittees and the extent of the permit in each case? Mr. PINCHOT. I think it would take a week or ten days. Or I could bring you here a card catalogue of all these permits, which might answer the same purpose. The CHAIRMAN. If the Senator desires it, we will be glad to have you furnish that information, but unless he desires it in that detail I would not want to encumber the record with it. (Reading:) State fully the character of the land surrendered in each forest reserve, or by whom surrendered for the Mr. PINCHOT. I think I can read that for you. It is "lieu." The word that probably troubles you there is "lieu.” The CHAIRMAN (continuing)— For which lieu right of selection has been allowed, and to what extent such lieu selections have been made. State by whom such rights to select new lands have been exercised, and where such lands have been selected. State what part of the land surrendered as base for lieu selection has been merchantable timber land, what part has been grazing land, what part has been arid land, and upon what character of land the lieu selection has been exercised, and where. Mr. PINCHOT. The law to which this question refers was repealed two years ago. The information asked for could be obtained, so far as it exists, only by a lengthy survey of the records of the General Land Office. The CHAIRMAN. You mean a lengthy examination? Mr. PINCHOT. Yes; a lengthy examination of the records of the General Land Office. Much of the information it would be impossible to give, because much of the so-called "scrip" has not yet been located, nor can it be known with any accuracy how much of the land was timber land and how much grazing land. The law was an exceedingly bad law, and I am proud to say that it was largely through the efforts of the Public Lands Commission, of which I have the honor to be a member, that it was repealed. The CHAIRMAN. Were the forest reserves administered by your Service during the time of the operation of the law? Mr. PINCHOT. They were not. The CHAIRMAN. So that whatever was done under that law in the matter of lieu selections was done prior to the placing of the Forest Service under your Department? Mr. PINCHOT. That is so. The CHAIRMAN. You have no records in your own office bearing upon that subject? Mr. PINCHOт. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. From your knowledge of it, gathered from your experience as a member of the Public Lands Commission, is it practicable to get the concrete and detailed information desired by the writer of the question? Mr. PINCHOT. I do not believe it is. The CHAIRMAN. Could you get approximate results? Mr. PINCHOT. A rough approximation could be reached, but it would be exceedingly laborious, and in the end would give results of so general a character as to be, so far as I can see, of no probable value. (Witness: Pinchot.) The CHAIRMAN. The information inquired for, in any event, would have to come from another Department? Mr. PINCHOT. It must come from the Land Office. The CHAIRMAN. Will you be kind enough to take the matter up with the Land Office and see if they can give any reasonable approximation, within a reasonable time, in answer to the inquiry? Mr. PINCHOT. I will be very glad to do so. The CHAIRMAN. And if they can, and we do not get it in time for printing as part of our investigation, be kind enough to have him transmit the information to Senator Heyburn. Mr. PINCHOT. I will do so. The CHAIRMAN. State the quantity of land represented by sections 16 and 36 included in forest reserves in each State and Territory. Mr. PINCHOT. That can be arrived at approximately by taking one-eighteenth of the total area of the forest reserves, which amounts to about 7,000,000 acres. The CHAIRMAN. Will you make a statement of the amount in each State and Territory on that hypothesis? Mr. PINCHOT. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. The eighteenth you speak of gives the result following from that premise? Mr. PINCHOT. One-eighteenth, I should say. There are 36 sections in a township. The CHAIRMAN. It says sections 16 and 36. Mr. PINCHOT. There are 36 sections in a township. Half of 36 is 18. The CHAIRMAN. They are all of uniform size? Mr. PINCHOT. They are supposed to be just 1 mile square. Mr. SAMUEL. All but that letter. The CHAIRMAN. I will read it to Mr. Flood, because he has not heard it. Inasmuch as I have had some correspondence with Senator Fulton in the matter before us, I think I should make my letter to him and his reply to me a part of the record. The letters are as follows [reads]: COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE, Hon. CHARLES W. FULTON, United States Senate. MY DEAR SENATOR: Referring to my conversation with you yesterday, I have just read vour remarks in the Senate of Thursday lest, in which you state "I think it (Forestry Bureau) is the worst organized department of the Government. I think the manner in which it is conducted is less creditable to those who have charge of it than any other department." We This is one of the matters into which it is the duty of the Committee on Expenditures in the Department of Agriculture to inquire. We have not yet finished our examination of the Department, but, so far as we have investigated that Bureau, the direct opposite to what you state has been developed. expect to have Mr. Pinchot before us to-day for examination, and I should be very glad to have you present and cross-examine him for the purpose of developing any facts that may exist. If, however, to-day would not be convenient for you. I will arrange to have him before the committee at some time that is convenient for you. If, on the other hand, it is not convenient for you to be present and cross-examine him, if you will be kind enough to furnish me with the facts upon which you base |