(Witness: Hill.)

grade than those sold by other Departments, because our 47,000 copies yielded only $5,388, while the others amounted to 28,000 copies and vielded $11,000.

Mr. DAVIS. Do you sell those at a price that compensates the Government for printing?

Mr. HILL. It does that at least, and I think it does more. I do not think we ought to ask more. I think the price they should be sold at should be the actual cost of producing the extra copies. For instance, I regard it as the part of the proper duty of the Government to publish its reports with a certain number of copies to satisfy certain demands, and then I think extra copies ought to be sold at as much as it costs per thousand to print them. I do not think we ought to try to make a profit out of the publication of them, although, perhaps, 10 per cent might be added for the handling of the matter by the superintendent of documents. They still sell some Yearbooks, and they have sold them as low as 65 cents apiece. I think now they are holding them at $1.

Mr. FLOOD. How do they get them to sell?

Mr. HILL. I do not know. The superintendent of documents quotes them, and I suppose that in the division of the total edition between Congressmen there are leftovers. I only know that he does quote them, and his report shows that he has sold a few copies.

Mr. FLOOD. What becomes of the proceeds?

Mr. HILL. The proceeds go to the Treasury; but we have an amendment to the law introduced a year or two ago enabling the superintendent of documents to utilize sums received from publications in reprinting other particular publications with the consent of the Secretary, and he is printing quite a number. I think it is stated here that he reprinted 43 publications during the year, paid for out of the funds received for other publications.

Mr. FLOOD. Do you see how the superintendent of documents can have any Yearbooks for sale?

Mr. HILL. The only way I could suggest is that I presume in the distribution there are some that are left over. That is the only way I can think of. I infer that he got a few copies each year left over in the hands of the Public Printer.

Mr. DAVIS. Is not a certain percentage of all documents left in the hands of the Department itself for distribution as occasion may require?

Mr. HILL. Oh, yes.

Mr. DAVIS. Isn't it possible, then, that some of those documents that the superintendent now has are the accumulation or surplus of documents not disposed of by the Department?

Mr. HILL. I can not conceive of his getting any Yearbooks from us, because we never have enough. But if there is by chance any surplus of other publications we are privileged to turn them over to him.

Mr. DAVIS. I can not imagine how he can get them to sell, because I could distribute a great many more than I have.

Mr. HILL. I fancy it must be as I have suggested, that in a division which gives so many to each Member of Congress there are a few hundred copies left over, and if there are less than enough to give one extra copy to each Member I presume they would remain in the

(Witnesses: Hill, Ashion.)

hands of the Public Printer. But still I do not fancy that he sells over 50 or 60 copies a year.

Mr. SAMUEL. Will you now explain with respect to any of the other publications that you have referred to?

Mr. HILL. I have said all that I think will interest the members of the committee in regard to that.

I wanted to call attention to the fact that there was another class of publication that is handled in such a way as to prevent accumulation. Our aim is to publish just enough to satisfy the demands that the chief sees he must have for immediate use and leave a few hundred copies over for miscellaneous demand, and then reprint as occasion may require.

Mr. SAMUEL. I suppose that will be all, so far as Mr. Hill is concerned, and we will reserve the examination of Mr. Hill in reference to the expense of his office until later.

JANUARY 12, 1907.

(Part of testimony given on above date before Committee on Expenditures in the Department of Agriculture.)

STATEMENT OF MR. H. F. ASHION, ASSISTANT INSPECTOR AND FOREMAN OF BINDING, GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE.

(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)

The CHAIRMAN. You are the foreman of binding?

Mr. ASHION. I am the assistant inspector, and acting foreman of binding at present.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you held that place?

Mr. ASHION. About six months.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you practical knowledge of the work of the department so that you can state to the committee the cost of the various characters of bindings-for instance, sheep, cloth, and buckram?

Mr. ASHION. Yes, sir. If I had known what the committee wanted I should have brought some samples. The price varies according to the style of binding.

The CHAIRMAN. That would go into details that we would not care about. I would like to have you state, if you can-take the average public document that may be bound in sheep or cloth or buckram, and state, if you can, the cost of each binding. What we want is to get the difference between the two or three bindings.

Mr. ASHION. It all depends on the number of pages contained in the volume, the style of binding, and the workmanship.

The CHAIRMAN. This volume that I have here contains about 700 pages, and that would cost to bind from 70 cents to $1.50?

Mr. ASHION. Well, a 700-page book, bound in sheep, would cost

75 cents.

The CHAIRMAN. In sheep?

Mr. ASHION. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The cost varying largely with the lettering?

Mr. ASHION. With the lettering and the special work.

The CHAIRMAN. What would it cost to bind such a volume in good cloth? Your statement is that it would cost from 70 cents to $1.50 for the sheep binding.

(Witness: Ashion.)

Mr. ASHION. Yes, sir. A 700-page book would cost about 16 cents in good cloth, and 75 cents in sheep for the binding.

The CHAIRMAN. And what would the cloth binding cost in the same manner and with the same lettering?

Mr. ASHION. Do you want the cost of the printing and paper? The CHAIRMAN. Just give us the cost of the binding, if it costs more or less.

Mr. ASHION. With that amount of lettering it would cost 22 cents. The CHAIRMAN. The actual cost to the Government. Does it cost the Government more or less to bind a volume like this [exhibiting] in the same number and the same quality of work in sheep or cloth? Mr. ASHION. It costs more in sheep than in cloth.

The CHAIRMAN. How much more?

Mr. ASHION. A 700-page book in cloth 22 cents, and in sheep 75 cents, making a difference of 53 cents.

The CHAIRMAN (interrupting). What would you charge to bind that in cloth?

Mr. ASHION. Twenty-two cents.

The CHAIRMAN. You say you "charge." Is it the policy of the Public Printer to keep an account with the various Departments and you keep the books for the purpose of ascertaining the cost of printing in the various Departments?

Mr. ASHION. Yes, sir. If you desire, I will give you some facts and figures. I will send them to you and quote the prices on binding. The CHAIRMAN. I would be glad to have you do so.

When you say "charge," is your charge based upon the actual cost to the Public Printer for doing the work?

Mr. ASHION. We add a certain percentage to the flat cost. We add 20 per cent in the bindery.

The CHAIRMAN. Is the flat cost intended to be the actual cost to the Government in the Printing Office?

Mr. ASHION. Yes, sir; with the 20 per cent added in the bindery. The CHAIRMAN. What is the 20 per cent added for?

Mr. ASHION. For the clerk hire, laborers, and wear and tear of machinery.

The CHAIRMAN. And that is estimated to cover the real cost?
Mr. ASHION. Yes, sir.

Mr. SAMUEL. Do you estimate the cost of storage in that?

Mr. ASHION. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What we would like to have you do is to prepare a statement, taking a typical volume of reports or documents ranging anywhere from 500 to 700 pages, so that we may be able to see the difference in cost between the three bindings, assuming them all to be good, and perhaps the best of their character that is, sheep, cloth, and buckram.

Mr. ASHION. And morocco?

The CHAIRMAN. We do not care anything about morocco. Documents are not ordinarily bound in morocco. Unless specially ordered, you do not bind them in morocco as a rule?

Mr. ASHION. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When you bind them for public distribution, you bind them either in sheep or cloth?

(Witness: Ashion.)

Mr. ASHION. Yes, sir. The Members' reserve are bound in half

morocco.

The CHAIRMAN. But those are not for general public distribution? Mr. ASHION. No, sir; only for Senators and Members.

The CHAIRMAN. For instance, there are over 500 copies of the Report on the Expenditures of the Department of Agriculture bound by the Public Printer for Congress. Those would be bound, unless otherwise ordered, in either sheep or cloth?

Mr. ASHION. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We would like to have you give us a detailed statement of the cost of those several kinds of bindings, assuming that the same kind of work is done in each instance so far as lettering and putting the volume together is concerned. What we want to get at is to see just what it costs to send out a certain book in sheep and what it would cost to bind the same book in the same way in cloth or buckram.

Mr. ASHION. In the manufacturing of the several kinds of binding different methods are pursued.

Sheep binding is sewed by hand, forwarded by hand, and finished by hand, which makes it the most durable, most artistic, and most costly, and would cost for a 700-page book 75 cents per volume.

Buckram comes next, and is manufactured exclusively by machine. The difference between buckram and cloth is only in the cost of the outside cover, and would cost 24 cents per volume.

Cloth comes next, and is bound exclusively by machine, and would cost 22 cents per volume.

In each instance the prices quoted are for large lots and for an equal amount of lettering on each style of binding, and for binding only.

The CHAIRMAN. What has been your business before in the Government Printing Office?

Mr. ASHION. I was in the bindery. I formerly had charge of a department in it.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been there?

Mr. ASHION. Fourteen years.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you have had practical experience so as to be able to state the relative durability of the several kinds of binding. Which will last the longest, assuming that the work done in each case is the same?

Mr. ASHION. Yes, sir; sheep lasts the best, and buckram is better than cloth.

The CHAIRMAN. How does cloth last?

Mr. ASHION. Cloth does not last nearly as long as sheep. Sheep binding is the strongest.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the cloth deteriorate as fast or faster than the sheep?

Mr. ASHION. Faster.

The CHAIRMAN. Sheep gradually rots on the shelves?

Mr. ASHION. Yes, sir; in time, but the method used in manufac

turing the book insures longer life than buckram or cloth.

The CHAIRMAN. About how long will cloth last?
Mr. ASHION. It all depends upon how you handle it.

23848-07-5

(Witness: Ashion.)

The CHAIRMAN. Take books that are not subject to much use and are handled only very occasionally?

Mr. ASHION. They last indefinitely. The Public Printer submitted some samples to Secretary Wilson of the Agricultural Department for a book formerly lettered in gold, of which they print 500,000 copies, lettered in aluminum, and with his authority we changed the lettering from gold to aluminum and made a saving of $6,000 on that one item. You have probably noticed that the Congressional Directory is lettered in aluminum. The new edition will be out to-day. That change to aluminum saved over $275 on the edition.

The CHAIRMAN. That made a saving of $6,000 on the publications of the Agricultural Department?

Mr. ASHION. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And if applied to all the Departments of the Government there would be a very handsome saving?

Mr. ASHION. There would.

The CHAIRMAN. Does your Department, unless otherwise instructed, make the lettering in aluminum wherever it is appropriate? Mr. ASHION. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is this aluminum lettering durable?

Mr. ASHION. Yes, sir; it lasts as long as the book.

The CHAIRMAN. And it is just as good as the gold?

Mr. ASHION. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any reason why it should not be used? Mr. ASHION. No, sir. The Secretary of Agriculture agreed to use aluminum. Have you an agricultural report here?

The CHAIRMAN. No. This is a good illustration. Are we to understand that unless otherwise ordered the Printing Office proposes hereafter to use aluminum lettering instead of gold?

Mr. ASHION. Wherever we possibly can, if the heads of the Departments will agree to it.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you having any difficulty in introducing the aluminum lettering?

Mr. ASHION. We have only gone to a few Departments.

The CHAIRMAN. So far as you have gone the Departments have very cheerfully concurred in the proposition, as I understand it? Mr. ASHION. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We will let you know when the committee meets again, but you get the facts and material for us so that we can put it right in as a part of your statement.

Mr. ASHION. When do you want it?

The CHAIRMAN. As soon as you can conveniently supply it. We are very much obliged to you.