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(Witness: True.)

The CHAIRMAN. Is that continuous work, except for an intermission for lunch?

Doctor True. It may be. These experiments are carried out for various periods ranging from one day to two weeks, a man staying in the apparatus all the time and sleeping there.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you get uniformity of physical exertion from men under those experiments?

Doctor True. Oh, yes; from a professional bicyclist you can get quite uniform action. Then we have tried to see if we could determine the relation of mental work to food.

The CHAIRMAN. Right here, is this experiment you have just spoken of a utilitarian proposition? Do you get results that are of practical, material, commercial value?

Doctor TRUE. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Or is it simply a scientific investigation?

Doctor True. No, sir; the bicycle is only a convenient means of performing the work. Our investigation is concerned with the work produced in relation to food supplied. That is a basis for the determination of the amounts of food which persons of different occupations should eat. The results are being taken up by the schools and used in their instruction, both in the medical schools and in colleges and schools of various kinds.

Mr. SAMUEL. Are the physiologists of the agricultural colleges carrying on investigations along those lines also

Doctor TRUE. Thus far nobody in this country has had an apparatus of that kind. The Carnegie Institution has cooperated with us to a certain extent, but they have been more particularly interested in pathological questions. They are going to extend that work.

Another class of work is illustrated by that which we have been doing at the University of Maine. There we have been making a series of digestion experiments to determine the completeness with which different foods are digested. Considerable question has arisen in a practical way recently as to the digestibility of ordinary wheat flour as compared with the coarser forms of flour and those breakfast foods which are now so common. To determine that question we have made quite a long series of digestion experiments with human subjects at the University of Maine and at the University of Minnesota, having two investigators so as to check the experiments, and the results have been published. The general result is this, that the ordinary flour is more thoroughly digested than the coarser foods, but the various wheat preparations are sufficiently digested to be good foods.

The CHAIRMAN. That is to say, a man gets more nutrition out of the ordinary flour than he does out of the prepared foods, per pound?

Doctor TRUE. Yes; because the ordinary flour is very completely digested, whereas the coarser foods have in them more of what is ordinarily called the bran; and however that may be prepared, if it is not taken out, it is not so thoroughly digested. Those coarser foods may serve a very useful purpose. If a man has slowness of digestion, they may increase the rapidity of the digestion, but in the final result, pound for pound, he will not get quite as much out of the coarser preparations of wheat as he will out of the fine.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the difference in the percentage of energy, or have you as yet reached results that will enable you to state that?

(Witness: True.)

Doctor True. We have stated that, but I do not know that I can state it offhand with any definiteness.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it a relatively small percentage?

Doctor True. It is not very large. My recollection in a single instance is this, that 13 ounces of pilot bread is the equivalent of 16 ounces of, we will say, shredded wheat.

The CHAIRMAN. It has a little over 20 per cent advantage then?

Doctor TRUE. Yes; in that particular case. That, of course, will vary with the kind of preparation.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; but in that particular instance there is a little over 20 per cent advantage in favor of the pilot bread. That is rather a concentrated form of wheat?

Doctor True. Yes. That has come up lately, I understand, in a practical way. The War Department has been considering the question of a ration for the troops in the Philippines, and it has been urged that this shredded-wheat preparation might be used in place of the ordinary cracker or biscuit.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been prosecuting your investigations into food products in reference to their nutritive value?

Doctor TRUE. Thirteen or fourteen years.

The CHAIRMAN. How many food products has the Department examined in that time and settled their relative values and stated what they are?

Doctor TRUE. We have worked principally with cereal products, meats, and fruits-a certain limited number of fruits and some nuts.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, cereal products, and meats and fruits and nuts?

Doctor TRUE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. How many different kinds have you demonstrated the nutritive qualities of during that fourteen-year period?

Doctor TRUE. I do not know that I can make any definite reply to that. Quite a considerable number.

The CHAIRMAN. What I wanted to get an idea of was this: How many men have you had on that kind of work for thirteen or fourteen years?

Doctor TRUE. A number of investigators each year, which I should say would average about half a dozen.

The CHAIRMAN. You have had six men working for thirteen or fourteen years? I want to have this examination show, if I can, the concrete results you have been able to accomplish in that particular line.

Doctor TRUE. Of course those six men would not include the temporary assistants.

The CHAIRMAN. The temporary assistants would be in addition to the six you have regularly engaged in the work? You would have other men, you say?

Doctor TRUE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. So that if you based it upon the time occupied by the six, that would be the minimum of work?

Doctor TRUE. Yes; but of course the different experiments have not gone on throughout the entire year. Our arrangements have been with the agricultural colleges and experiment stations largely; they

(Witness: True.)

would put men on this for a limited period and take them off, and it is therefore difficult to give you an exact estimate.

The CHAIRMAN. Have your six men been occupied during thirteen or fourteen years practically all the time making these nutritive food investigations?

Doctor True. No, sir; these six men are not employed all the time. I did not mean that.

The CHAIRMAX. What portion of the time are they employed ?

Doctor TRUE. It would be difficult to answer that very definitely. We have about that number in centers of investigation. Take the University of Maine as an example. We are paying there for the work that is done a thousand dollars.

The CHAIRMAN. To whom are you paying that, to a university man, or are you paying out a thousand dollars in salaries to United States employees?

Doctor TRUE. That is being paid to one man.
The CHAIRMAN. One of your inspectors?
Doctor TRUE. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. One of the State inspectors?

Doctor True. One of the State station men. But that, of course, does not pay his entire salary. The arrangement there is that the experiment station shall give us laboratory facilities and the use of its apparatus and such assistance as we need to complete a certain series of experiments. Now, that will take, in the course of a year, three or four months.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, three or four months this man may be engaged in experimental work?

Doctor True. The work goes on during the year, but is equivalent to three or four months of continuous work. The man in charge gives it such attention from day to day as may be necessary.

The CHAIRMAN. But during that time he would not be confined to one particular subject of experimentation, would he?

Doctor True. He might be. This year we are making a long series of digestion experiments with reference to the nutritive value of corn and corn products. Now, this man will follow that work up with the aid of perhaps one other man, an assistant, and make a long series of digestion experiments.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, during the period of three or four months' time, you say?

Doctor TRUE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And for that time you pay him a thousand dollars, as I understand you?

Doctor True. Yes; but he supervises the work during the year.

The CHAIRMAN. Is not that pretty good compensation for that time?

Doctor TRUE. I do not think so.
The CHAIRMAN. That would be at the rate of about $4,000 a year?
Doctor True. Yes; we need that kind of men.

The CHAIRMAN. At the same time I suppose this man is an employee of the University of Maine--that is, a professor in the school?

Doctor TRUE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. So that he is getting his ordinary professor's salary and this in addition at the rate of three or four thousand dollars a year?

(Witness: True.)

Doctor True. Yes. My idea is that he gets $2,500 from the State.

The CHAIRMAN. Two thousand five hundred from the State and this $1,000 extra?

Doctor TRUE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That twenty-five hundred dollars is in addition to what he gets from the Government !

Doctor TRUE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. As to the time involved, how long did it take your Bureau to make this investigation as to the shredded wheat and pilot bread for the purpose of ascertaining the relative nutritive values of those two articles?

Doctor TRUE. I can not tell you that. This matter, of course, is under my general supervision, but so far as the detailed experiments are concerned I can not pretend to have any detailed information. These two materials were studied at different times.

The CHAIRMAN. Would more than one man be engaged in an experiment of that kind ?

Doctor TRUE. Usually more than one.

The CHAIRMAN. While they were engaged in that experiment would they be discharging other duties?

Doctor True. They might be: yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it possible that just to oversee that experiment would take ''p their whole time? Of course I am perfectly unfamiliar with the whole thing, but I want to get a notion of the line of work they do, and what it is, and whether it is likely to take up their whole time. I want to see whether your Bureau is working fast or slow.

Doctor True. Such work you can not manage as you would manage a factory. You have to deal with the human subject and varied materials, and whether you would turn off just so much work each day or not would depend on a variety of conditions.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything that would hinder a man from supervising or conducting a half a dozen experiments along those lines?

Doctor TRUE. No; if he had the time.

The CHAIRMAX. Would he not have the time? What is there about it that would take up his time--would prevent his conducting half a dozen experiments in the matter of nutritive value of foods?

Doctor TRI'E. He has to go through with something of a regular course. Ile has to get his subjects, and they have to eat at certain times. The nutritive value of what they eat has to be determined, and the amount consumed; then their feces have to be collected and prepared for examination and finally examined; finally, a careful calculation must be made to determine what each one has actually digested.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the reason that a man can not conduct half a dozen experiments at the same time?

Doctor TRI'E. He can.

The CHAIRMAN. What I want to know is, do they? You say you have had six of these gentlemen, who are inspectors, or--what do you call them?

Doctor True. They are investigators.

(Witness: True.)

The CHAIRMAN. You have had six of them, and what I wish to get at is whether there is any reason why one of these men should not be physically able to conduct successfully, say, half a dozen experiments at the same time and look after half a dozen men undergoing these processes?

Doctor TRUE. No, sir; I do not think so. He might have under his supervision several men digesting food, but he could not conduct several lines of similar studies at the same time.

The CHAIRMAN. Do they, as a matter of fact? Do your investigators have charge of as many men of that sort, all of whom would be testing different materials, or do you have several subjects on the same material for the purpose of having a wider basis for a summary?

Doctor TRUE. What we have tried to do is to specialize in that line of work just as we do in other lines. The man at the Maine experiment station has been making a specialty of the cereals.

The CHAIRMAN. Corn?

Doctor True. Yes, sir. He is working with corn at present, and he has made himself very familiar with cereals, and his work, therefore, has been largely confined to investigations along that line.

The CHAIRMAX. How many different corn products has he been investigating?

Doctor TRUE. Corn meal—white meal and vellow meal; then there are different grades of fineness of the meal and corn flakes and a number of commercial preparations.

The CHAIRMAN. Outside of your corn meal, both white and yellow, and of different degrees of fineness, the only things that he has for investigation are the prepared foods that have their bases on corn?

Doctor TRUE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Does he conduct all those investigations at the same time? For instance, is he examining all those products during the same three-months' period, or does he only take one of them and run through the period with it, and a little later run through with another?

Doctor True. We make up a programme for this man to cover; a certain amount of work which we think he can fairly do under the circumstances under which he works, for the given amount of money.

The CHAIRMAN. In this instance of corn, is it a fact that he took the subject of corn meal?

Doctor TRUE. Yes; corn meal of different sorts.

The CHAIRMAN. And devoted his time to the investigation of that and that alone during this period of three or four months.

Doctor TRUE. That is my recollection.

The CHAIRMAN. Why was it not perfectly feasible for him at the same time to have, going on with that, experiments covering these three or four or five different corn products? Is it credible that his whole time could have been devoted to the corn-meal proposition alone? Of course, you are more familiar with the detail than I am.

Doctor TRUE. Yes, sir; he devoted his time to that investigation. That work involves a very considerable number of digestion experiments, involving chemical and other examinations of different foods and rations, and feces. A man might supervise that with a force of

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